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Pyro59
Pyro59
Join Date 09/2012
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Research specialization trading issue

October 8, 2015 5:10:10 AM from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

I have noticed that when the AI gifts certain research specializations, it can be more of a curse than a gift. For example, for the research optimization specialization, one of the choices is "sustainable research" which reduces the maintenance cost of research improvements by 10%. This is a negligible bonus compared to the specialization that increases research by 10%. I had "sustainable research" gifted to me by the AI, and therefore was stuck with it as it can't be declined. There should be an option to decline such "gifts". But I think it highlights issues with a lack of balance in the research specialization choices more generally.

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Pyro59
Taslios
Join Date 11/2002
+74
Reply #1 October 8, 2015 9:58:23 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

The specializations are a triggerpoint issue...

 

I like them in the game.... yet I really dislike how they are implemented.

 

I think the specialization should open up new branches of the tree to give you unique techs.  These unique techs should not be eligible to be traded.

That the specializations simply give bonuses is weak sauce.

I also REALLY hate that they have specializations for the planet types...  rendering a good number of the worlds just... lesser than others.

 

 

 

 

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Pyro59
StellioPaultos
Join Date 04/2015
+8
Reply #2 October 8, 2015 7:28:40 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Well said, Taslios. The specialize environment is an ultra-easy fix: just make it give +25% raw to the unspecializing types.  That way it's still pretty darn special (only I'd admit to some desire to have it grant a positive net bonus, but they've already compensated this, by making the hostile environments only bring in large and fertile planets, mostly)

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Pyro59
a0152570
Join Date 06/2014
+49
Reply #3 October 8, 2015 7:38:25 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Taslios,
reply 1

I also REALLY hate that they have specializations for the planet types... rendering a good number of the worlds just... lesser than others.

This is the one i really hate too.

Quoting Taslios,
reply 1

I think the specialization should open up new branches of the tree to give you unique techs.

This is a cool idea, not sure how doable it is but it would make specializing actually mean something.

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Pyro59
admiralWillyWilber
Join Date 05/2009
+99
Reply #4 October 8, 2015 8:57:45 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting ,
quoting post

I have noticed that when the AI gifts certain research specializations, it can be more of a curse than a gift. For example, for the research optimization specialization, one of the choices is "sustainable research" which reduces the maintenance cost of research improvements by 10%. This is a negligible bonus compared to the specialization that increases research by 10%. I had "sustainable research" gifted to me by the AI, and therefore was stuck with it as it can't be declined. There should be an option to decline such "gifts". But I think it highlights issues with a lack of balance in the research specialization choices more generally.
I alaso think that you should be able to refuse gifts for that reason. I also think the Ai. should try this mixing it up with gifting good gifts to. This way it try's to messyou up.
Quoting Taslios,
reply 1

The specializations are a triggerpoint issue...

 

I like them in the game.... yet I really dislike how they are implemented.

 

I think the specialization should open up new branches of the tree to give you unique techs. 
 
I think this is a good idea. Don't really care about extreme planet specialization. What I wouldn't mind if instead of class zero planets if they were extreme planets instead. Maybe balancing this out by making it harder to research extreme planets, or having some extreme planets really expensive to research, or giving class zero planets mining bonuses.

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Pyro59
mrblondini
Join Date 09/2007
+33
Reply #5 October 12, 2015 3:31:18 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

I think the simplest solution is a "Refuse Gift" option.

Which will, of course, offend the race giving you the gift. But the offence caused may be better than the tech you don't want.

Or:

A "Suggest Another Gift" option?

A "Just Give Me BCs" option? - like a gift token, you get money to spend how you like.

 

 

 

 

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Pyro59
Pyro59
Join Date 09/2012
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Reply #6 October 12, 2015 4:12:35 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

I think a decline option is adequate for the short term. I'd like to see some adjustments in the balancing of research specializations in future patches.

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Pyro59
Pyro59
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Reply #7 October 12, 2015 6:58:15 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

I had a better idea. You can already have multiple specializations if you trade for them. Why not allow the player to research multiple specializations for themselves if they want to? It will negate the impact of being gifted dud specializations, and present the player with a trade off between taking the time to research additional specializations for the bonuses or choosing to prioritize advancing along the tech tree.

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Pyro59
a0152570
Join Date 06/2014
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Reply #8 October 12, 2015 7:24:51 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Pyro59,
reply 7

Why not allow the player to research multiple specializations

 

That's what we started with (back in beta).  Dev's took it out because....  well, if you can research them all it's not "specializing" .  For the most part i am ok with it

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Pyro59
Pyro59
Join Date 09/2012
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Reply #9 October 12, 2015 8:12:25 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting a0152570,
reply 8

Quoting Pyro59,
reply 7

Why not allow the player to research multiple specializations



 

That's what we started with (back in beta).  Dev's took it out because....  well, if you can research them all it's not "specializing" .  For the most part i am ok with it

 

I agree it's not the best solution from a realism perspective. I think its the best solution from a gameplay perspective. "Gifting" dud specializations is a hilarious but annoying exploit in multiplayer.

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Pyro59
trims2u
Join Date 08/2010
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Reply #10 October 13, 2015 1:18:23 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Frankly, the best fix is twofold:

 

1. add the ability to refuse gifts. That eliminates the "dud specialization" exploit.

2. lock out the other specializations, even for trading.  Once you specialize, you should NEVER be able to get another one of them, whether via by research yourself, trading, gift, or Galactic Event.  Specializations should absolutely be single-choice only, no-going-back forks in the road.

 

Different tech branches for each specialization is too complex, and really too difficult to bother implementing. There are over two dozen specialization points in a typical tech tree, so unique paths for each are simply unmanageable.

 

And, yeah, we need to break out the Extreme Colonization planet types as individual techs, not as specializations. This has been complained about for well over a year now.

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Pyro59
Pyro59
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Reply #11 October 13, 2015 3:04:50 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting trims2u,
reply 10

Frankly, the best fix is twofold:

 

1. add the ability to refuse gifts. That eliminates the "dud specialization" exploit.

2. lock out the other specializations, even for trading.  Once you specialize, you should NEVER be able to get another one of them, whether via by research yourself, trading, gift, or Galactic Event.  Specializations should absolutely be single-choice only, no-going-back forks in the road.

 

Different tech branches for each specialization is too complex, and really too difficult to bother implementing. There are over two dozen specialization points in a typical tech tree, so unique paths for each are simply unmanageable.

 

And, yeah, we need to break out the Extreme Colonization planet types as individual techs, not as specializations. This has been complained about for well over a year now.

 

Great thanks Trims2u, I think that is the solution that is needed. I'd like to see it implemented. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my other post, which is the ability to trade technologies when the receiving party does not have the prerequisite technology for it. Link below:

https://forums.galciv3.com/editpost/472215

 

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Pyro59
androshalforc
Join Date 03/2007
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Reply #12 October 13, 2015 9:45:15 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting trims2u,
reply 10

Different tech branches for each specialization is too complex, and really too difficult to bother implementing. There are over two dozen specialization points in a typical tech tree, so unique paths for each are simply unmanageable.

actually i don't think it would be that bad if the specialization techs were just the regular trees with a hint of the specialization maybe with a unique tech thrown in on occasion it wouldn't be too hard

 

 

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Pyro59
trims2u
Join Date 08/2010
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Reply #13 October 15, 2015 12:53:41 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Pyro59,
reply 11


[snip]



Great thanks Trims2u, I think that is the solution that is needed. I'd like to see it implemented. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my other post, which is the ability to trade technologies when the receiving party does not have the prerequisite technology for it. Link below:

https://forums.galciv3.com/editpost/472215

 

 

I'm OK with trading for techs that you don't have the prereq for. Because, otherwise, that means there are certain techs you'll NEVER be able to trade for (or trade to), because we have different tech trees and there simply aren't prereqs possible to obtain by any means other than trading.

If a tech is tradeable (and, I do think there should be some that aren't), you should be able to trade it to anyone, at any time.If we start down the path of "you can trade X to the Alphas, but not Y, while the Betas you can trade either two", it's wonderful play, but really, really nasty coding and game design.  That is, I think it's much more work to implement such a scheme than it really adds to the game.

 

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Pyro59
admiralWillyWilber
Join Date 05/2009
+99
Reply #14 October 15, 2015 3:25:11 AM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Pyro59,
reply 7

I had a better idea. You can already have multiple specializations if you trade for them. Why not allow the player to research multiple specializations for themselves if they want to? It will negate the impact of being gifted dud specializations, and present the player with a trade off between taking the time to research additional specializations for the bonuses or choosing to prioritize advancing along the tech tree.
This would really defeat the purpose of specializations, and you have to admit there is nice gameplay when you have something to lose. You can always make things better, A possible option is to not let you research multiple specializations, but let you trade multiple specializations without getting locked out when you trade. One thing I would like is a reminder that says hey dummy you are researching a different path to that same specialization you are trading for this will prevent you from researching the specialization you want wasting tech points. Also a reminder you are trading for a tech that may prevent the specialization you want.

Quoting trims2u,
reply 10

Frankly, the best fix is twofold:

 

1. add the ability to refuse gifts. That eliminates the "dud specialization" exploit.

2. lock out the other specializations, even for trading.  Once you specialize, you should NEVER be able to get another one of them, whether via by research yourself, trading, gift, or Galactic Event.  Specializations should absolutely be single-choice only, no-going-back forks in the road.

 

Don't mind this idea. I just think it should be coupled with my idea.

Quoting trims2u,
reply 10


Different tech branches for each specialization is too complex, and really too difficult to bother implementing. There are over two dozen specialization points in a typical tech tree, so unique paths for each are simply unmanageable.


Complex that would make for a better game.

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Pyro59
Taslios
Join Date 11/2002
+74
Reply #15 October 16, 2015 12:22:27 PM
from Galactic Civilizations III ForumsGalactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting trims2u,
reply 10

Frankly, the best fix is twofold:
 

Different tech branches for each specialization is too complex, and really too difficult to bother implementing. There are over two dozen specialization points in a typical tech tree, so unique paths for each are simply unmanageable.

 

And, yeah, we need to break out the Extreme Colonization planet types as individual techs, not as specializations. This has been complained about for well over a year now.

 

While this is something that is better suited for a full expansion of the game rather than just a patch, I fully disagree that it is unmanageable.

On of the things i've noticed i that there are a LOT of duplicated specializations.    pretty much each new Engine tech has a specialization that lets you choose faster/smaller/or cheaper  

Rather than have that specialization point show up after the Ion Engine...  remove that all together.     put in another tech such as Boosted Ion Engines that use strategic resources but operate at the same speed as warp...  and then warp  and THEN the specialization tree.    If you choose faster  then you get something like Ultra warp that opens up very late in the game..  or super thrusters... or some such in addition to the speed boosts.

 

I hate that the specializations seem to be thrown in as a "speed bump" between actual techs.    It seems they wanted the research tree to be x techs long and they just threw these extra specializations in to make it so long but they don't FEEL special..  they just boost...

A specialization should actually do something special.  it should be unique.  It should be untradable  and it should be a genuine... OH SNAP which one is actually better?  right now there are obvious answers to that for pretty much any specialization, but if the tree gave a bunch of neat things rather than JUST a bonus this would be a much more interesting  game.

 

Also.. in closing..  look at Gal Civ 2  the tech tree changed with each expansion..  and in the final one it TOTALLY changed as each race got unique tech trees.    Changing the tree to better balance the game or make it more interesting is not something that is beyond the scope of StarDock

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