Fog of War » Forum Post by upsurper

Shadowy shapes like this?

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I agree that the fog of war should look better or different. Something about it looks flat and unfinished. I am not sure how it should change but the overlay seems too opaque to me.

Maybe if they make the overlay more translucent/not as much a light gray but more a subtle dark gray it could work.

Or if they made the edge between the fog and visible space a gradual transition and not such a sharp dramatic edge.

I suppose they could make no overlay/translucency to the space itself at all and make all of the objects in the 'fog' translucent themselves (except for stars).

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androshalforc

Join Date 03/2007

+62

im kind of mixed it makes sense to be able to see the stars and it also makes sense that at some point you should be able to identify planets and thier characteristics (technologically we are getting into that right now)

but at the same time i wanna say F&(% logic make it a surprise i dont want to see any stars or anything untill i can get there

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being able to see planets, and especially what class and type they are, should not be available early without sacrificing something else.

Exploration is important, having stars visible as a guideline so your not going in completely blind is good, but having some unknowns makes it more exciting when you find a good planet. If you want the advantage of seeing where all the good planets are, it should come at the cost of a few other technologies that you could have done in the meantime to slow you down as compensation.

Quoting AuraBoy,

reply 2

I suppose they could make no overlay/translucency to the space itself at all and make all of the objects in the 'fog' translucent themselves (except for stars).

How would you see where you have explored and where you haven't?

Fog looks crap in most games, but it has to be obvious where it is and where it isn't for gameplay reasons. Also keep in mind that there are 2 layers of fog that need to be obviously different, fog where you have never been, and fog where you have been but don't have vision atm.

I think not being able to see the space background where you haven't explored is good, it makes you feel the universe is getting bigger the more you explore it. As a aside, how the minimap in civ5 starts zoomed in only encompassing what you have explored, and gradually zooms out as you explore more was probably also done for this kind of effect.

Other then making the edges look nice and putting some sort of pattern in the fog itself, i don't really know what you can do about it.

You maybe show some explosions or lightning effects under the fog at places where a lot of activity is happening or where you otherwise want to draw attention. Might be cool mid game when you have explored half the map and you can get vague hints that something is going on in the fog where you cannot see yet, out of the range or your scouts.

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upsurper

Join Date 12/2009

+18

I just want it to maybe be a dynamic mist or something besides gray

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Quoting EleventhStar,

reply 4

being able to see planets, and especially what class and type they are, should not be available early without sacrificing something else.

Exploration is important, having stars visible as a guideline so your not going in completely blind is good, but having some unknowns makes it more exciting when you find a good planet. If you want the advantage of seeing where all the good planets are, it should come at the cost of a few other technologies that you could have done in the meantime to slow you down as compensation.

Quoting AuraBoy,

reply 5

I suppose they could make no overlay/translucency to the space itself at all and make all of the objects in the 'fog' translucent themselves (except for stars).

How would you see where you have explored and where you haven't?

I say in the the quote you quoted. Explored objects would be translucent. But I said more in another thread:

Quoting AuraBoy,

reply 5

I agree that this initial 'fog' should be nothing more than empty space with just stars (and perhaps large nebulas) showing. As you explore the hexes can become visible denoting 'explored space'. Any space without hexes can simply be unexplored inside this fog.

As for previously explored space in the fog of war - once you leave an 'observed' area the planets/asteroids/units etc can become faded/translucent and remain static as the last way you observed them. This way you can still see the explored areas but you will not know how it has changed (i.e. a previously available planet will still show translucent as available but could have been colonized since the last time you were there - or a translucent enemy starbase will show on your map but it could have been destroyed since the time you were there). These instances would all be true unless you have an alliance, treaty or spies/intelligence (or even new techs) in which the areas on the map can update occasionally or in real time.

I think another forum member suggested a shadowy overlay to the board. I think if done well this could work. In addition to what I stated above the fog of war could contain a very subtle rippling shadow that overlayed the fog areas. It would have to be extremely subtle though, warping space/light ever so slightly that it still looked like empty space but animated/distorted enough that the player would be certain that they were looking into the fog.

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Lucky_Jack

Join Date 01/2002

+62

The above has gotten me thinking, always a bad thing to do.

1). I think the FOW we have in Alpha 2 could very well be a place holder, perhaps even one that may have to remain until one of the DLC's is produced. I think coming up with an FOW that is unique (or at least not so dated) and makes sense within a space game will take a lot of thought, work, and time.

2). I think that the idea that we don't even know what type of stars we can see before exploring that area of galaxy is terribly outdated when compared to what we are able to see in real life. We should be able to tell if a star is a red, yellow, brown, green, purple, or what ever kind of star in the game just as we are able to see from our planet today.

3). Not able to see what kind of planets are orbiting a star? Again, I think this is an outdated idea compared to what we are just beginning to accomplish today.

4). Nebulae? Ditto, at least for medium and larger ones.

5). Other galactic effects - obstructions, wormholes, anomalies, resources, etc., somewhat ditto. The opportunity to create some surprises for us lies here.

6). Being able to see ships and evidence of commerce across the galaxy, however, would still strain my feeling of the credulity of the game, unless such vision is enabled by some diplomatic means.

7). The idea that exploration is the only way to get eyes on what is going on in the galaxy also stains my feeling of the credibility of the game. I can't remember whether it was in GC1 or early GC2, or even GC for OS/2, or even if I remember it being in the GC series at all, but wasn't there a diplomatic option of exchanging information about the galaxy and what was going on in it? One aspect of alliances should be the trading of information, such as ship movements each party knows about, trade routes, boundaries of different kinds, and so on. In fact, I think this should happen automatically and continually within any alliance, and the update of such information should terminate if an alliance is terminated (this may require a means of showing the age of some types of information).

8). The idea that we forget about where an enemy ship was as soon as it enters a portion of space we don't have eyes on is silly. Knowing where an enemy has been and which direction he/she was traveling should be available on the main map, at least as an option when in tactical view mode.

9). Switching the main map from visual mode to tactical mode should not depend on being zoomed in or out. We should be able to switch from one to the other by a toggle of some sort that is independent of zooming actions.

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Gaunathor

Join Date 04/2006

+170

Quoting Lucky Jack,

reply 7

3). Not able to see what kind of planets are orbiting a star? Again, I think this is an outdated idea compared to what we are just beginning to accomplish today.

Not to mention that the older races have been sending out probes to explore the galaxy for millennia. They know where all the planets are. This has been a big deal in the previous games.

Quoting Lucky Jack,

reply 7

I can't remember whether it was in GC1 or early GC2, or even GC for OS/2, or even if I remember it being in the GC series at all, but wasn't there a diplomatic option of exchanging information about the galaxy and what was going on in it?

Maybe in the OS/2 version, but the Windows games definitely didn't have that. Still, it's a good idea. It would make alliances more useful, in my opinion, if you could see everything they see.

Quoting Lucky Jack,

reply 7

8). The idea that we forget about where an enemy ship was as soon as it enters a portion of space we don't have eyes on is silly. Knowing where an enemy has been and which direction he/she was traveling should be available on the main map, at least as an option when in tactical view mode.

Agreed. Especially in cases where you didn't see the ship for some reason (it happened too fast, or the camera was pointing to somewhere else on the map). Just because you didn't see the ship yourself, doesn't mean that your sensors didn't pick it up.

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Fog of war really is a case of gameplay over lore in my opinion.

Quoting Lucky Jack,

reply 7

8). The idea that we forget about where an enemy ship was as soon as it enters a portion of space we don't have eyes on is silly. Knowing where an enemy has been and which direction he/she was traveling should be available on the main map, at least as an option when in tactical view mode.

How do you imagine this in practice? Sounds cool, but if you ask me it would turn into a big mess real quick:

Does every fog of war tile have a timer on it with a "last scouted 49 weeks ago" showing the state of the tile as it was when you last scouted it? Or just tiles with objects in them? How does the course estimation work? Does it work by having all ships draw a line behind them as they go, while they are in your sensor range, that stays for say 10 turns, but freezes if the tile becomes fogged? Does it just show the direction the ship was going just before it enters the fog, what if it was on a zig/zag course that is required due to hexes? How long should this info stay? untill you next scout the hex? a set amount of turns?

Quoting Lucky Jack,

reply 7

6). Being able to see ships and evidence of commerce across the galaxy, however, would still strain my feeling of the credulity of the game, unless such vision is enabled by some diplomatic means.

If that was related to my earlier post, i meant it more as picking up faint sensor readings on your long range sensor stations. Visualized by some disturbance in the grey fog (the one where you have never explored yet), maybe it looks like a storm or a glow underneath, nothing real just a vague hint that there are a lot of ships in that area. Maybe areas where multiple battles take place. what would trigger it can be whatever seems appropriate. maybe just well developed planets disturb the fog eventually, giving you a vague hint of where empires you haven't discovered yet are. (which you should be able to guess by mid game anyways, so it's not like it's new information, just flair)

I'm not saying its a good or bad idea, but it strikes me as the only thing you can do to make the you-have-never-been-here-fog more interesting.

Think of it a similar to being able to figure out where enemy home planets are in galciv2 by looking at trade route and asteroid mine lines on the map, but a bit more mysterious.

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