Well, I won't tear you to shreds, just argue that your incredulity is not an argument for intelligent design. Many of us see what you believe to be God as too complex (not to mention to anthropomorphic) to have come about by random chance, so using your logic (or lack thereof) he must have been designed (most likely by us). Don't forget, the large amount of complexity you perceive around you in the natural world is minuscule compared to the astronomical simplicity of the observable universe.


From everything I have read about the movie, if I am going to give ID a chance, Expelled wouldn't be giving it a fair one. Sounds like it focuses on Nazism's alleged ties to evolutionary theory (argument from consequences is never valid), takes quotes out of context (dishonesty leading me to distrust anything else it has to say), and argues against evolutionary theory more than for ID (using a false dichotomy, and missing the fact that evolution being right/wrong has nothing to do with the rightness/wrongness of ID).

"the proof is in the fossil record."

Explain the "Precambrian Explosion", then.

I disbelive in evoloution for many reasons, but my main one is: it puts creatures with completely different biologies in each other's "lines of decent." For example, some evolotionists belive our four-chambered heart goes back to a small reptile of the Carboniforus Period.

EXCUSE ME?! the Delapodasaur was a REPTILE, humans are MAMMALS. Going from one species to another is one thing, but from CLASSIFICATION of animal to another?

Yeah right.

"I won't hide the fact that I'm a Christian, but if I weren't I'd find it very hard to believe that it's possible for the complexity that we see in the natural world to product of random chance. I believe that everything in existence was designed by God. Just look at the complexity of a cell, our DNA, the processes that keep everything in the universe going, I just don't see how that can be the product of random chance."

And then there were two...

BTW,I'm a Christian myself, and I interpret the Bible literaly, but there are some beliefs I find ridiculous, like Earth being 6000 years old. That's no only irrational, it's flat-out stupid. Or natural resources beling unlimited/global warming being a big lie/overpopulation a hoax. These are not Christian beliefs, they are extremist, idiotic beliefs.

Personally I think this country has far more to fear from fundamentalist Christians than from fundamentalist Muslims.

Go spout your proselytizing elsewhere.

I really do object to this interjection of religious crap. And I literally mean crap.

This thread is as offensive to me as child pornography. I don't see why we need to be subjected to this.

I can see we most likely agree 100%; however, you are not scientifically proving the non-existence of god(s). You are logically denying that there is proof of god. As the friend you quoted said, "If I believed in God because there is no way to disprove him then I would have to believe in unicorns...". This can be taken a step further. If I believe in one religion's god(s) due to lack of disproof, I must believe in all religions' god(s) due to lack of disproof. Luckily, while there may be no disproof of god(s) in general, there is plenty of disproof for most religions' god(s) (or at least their claims to be able to "know" or understand such beings).

I do not believe either topic is mutually exclusive. It's just both sides of the argument are unwilling to combine their beliefs into a single truth.

I believe in science/evolution and a God.

I'll try to refrain from saying too much, because in all actuality, nothing anyone says here will change peoples' view. It feels quite hopeless for both camps to exhaustively argue on points that the other side will not except.

What allows for all the wonderment in the universe? How is it all objects in existence can be defined? Physics is the reason things CAN exist, but why does it act the way it does? It could have been different. Ever wonder how strange it is we are in a universe that is ever expanding, but has no bounds?

Evolution is one of Gods' greatest creations. It allows for adaptation, that otherwise, would lead to extinction. Only an intelligent God could see into billions of years to realize the need for evolution, gravity, physics, math, chemistry, etc. God is time. I don't mean the kind of time on your wristwatch, but he/she exists at all times at all places at once. God is more abstract than religion will allow for. God is all things.

All the rules of life have been laid out in a form that only science can discover, philosophy can imagine, and religion can embrace.

It's just unfortunate that religion is unwilling to allow science to rewrite the books.

"science" as we call it, is about taking guesses at how. not why.

Intelligent Design is a "why" explanation, there is no tangible evidence to suggest that it is true, at all. it is, in all truth, theology just as much as all forms of religion, all codes of morality and string theory.

in short, its an improvable theory. it has no evidence, statistic, physical, or otherwise.

Evolution has evidence supporting it from various forms of study, from statistical analysis to in depth case studies.

does ID have any place in schools? I personally do not think so. but absolutely it does NOT have a place in any course labeled "science". its not science, and without any capacity for proof it will *remain* that way.

Thanks for the original poster for bringing this up.
I want to make a few points.

To the person who posted this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504&eurl
Disproves evolution. End of story, lock the thread.

Unless this was a joke this is completely retarded, i mean comparing the theory of the beginnings of life a jar of peanut butter ???, i know you didnt make the video so thats why im so vocal about it.

Also just because you dont spontaneously get life everywhere doesnt mean that evolution is incorrect now does it, the conventional Darwin evolution theory has three rules which i wont go into. They all deal with life AFTER the point of creation (spontaneous or otherwise) which is all we as scientists and normal people can observe.

SCIENCE does not and cannot at the moment (or mabye ever, and this is not a a failing of science) say what started life (its so completely amazing, just as impossible to define as why we are conscious)

anyway on the piont of the beginning of life, we know base elements form molecules and can join together to form amino acids PURELY by chemical reaction. Amino acids are one of the lowest building blocks of life, now how these co-coalesced to form the finrst primitve single celled life, nobody knows, but as science always tries to provide a "possible" answer to ANY problem, its theorized that perhaps the sudden addition of energy created the first life, its our best guess.

Now on this issue, speaking as an agnostic and also as an earth science student soon to be graduate (four weeks !!!) there is no proof against god, just proof against the bible, mabye it took the divine touch to start life, but after that it followed its own rules.

Science will never be able so say WHY the universe began only how it developed, probably the same for life itself.


If there was ever proof of god it would be the most amazing moment in my life.

Anyway this is an expansive topic just a few of my thoughts in there.

TO all the people out there:

Science is not some person or a belief system, we as scientists don't "believe" in science we practice it. Its a process of thought which can be applied to anything. Its a methodology not a single "thing". I hope i can convay this propperly, this is the most important point i have to make.

sorry kyro, you posted your request for moving the thread just as i was writing this so i didnt see it, im just editing it now.
By the way i completely agree with the reasons for moving this, its true what they say you know, NEVER talk about religion or politics over dinner, it ruins every occasion and there is a satisfactory conclusion