A thread is a group conversation and conversation evolves. It just doesn't stick purely on the one topic, it starts on one then progresses to another and another and in a long one it may appear like the original topic and what is currently being talked about aren't related but it originated from it.  Look at your own comment, it has pretty much nothing to do with what xavior originally said but it was spurred from what SoFFact said. When me and SoFFacet wrote out posts, I don't think we didn't damaged the conversation or prevented anyone from talking about what Oak and HoL so I think, if anything, the thread gained from our contribution.

I think what SoFFacet mean't was that Xavior thought my reply was to do with his original post and questioned why i said it but it was directed at SoFFacet.  SoFFacet could of been nicer.

I don't have much experience with 4vs4 and 5vs5 as Sedna, I mainly play 3vs3 but maybe focus on more HP and play more conservatively when outnumbered.  Just by sticking near towers you are preventing them from pushing further and if they keep using their abilities on you and you can stay above a dangerous level it is there mana they are wasting.

I play mostly TB (fire) lately and I regularly have more hp than other DG from start to endgame.  If you're investing in anything else but HP/Armor with TB you're no playing it right.

HoL is cheap on any DG, period.  Oak is no special case there.  I just love running into multiple towers mid-game with TB and dealing 6+k damage to all of them in less than 20s.  Only to be full hp and mana seconds later.

I'm done with this topic. I'm sorry you continue to go back to priests and all these variables and everything. You're talking very specific scenarios and until i see that you look at the general picture then i'm through. You say NORMALLY oak this yet then you go on and talk about adapting to the situation. Isn't getting shield at level 7 adapting isn't getting HoL very early adapting.

You will see no further response from me.

I was talking about the general picture. The general picture is that Oak buying a HoL midgame is significantly worse than spending the gold on other things. That is why it is not "insanely powerful", because it's downright bad. That strategy might catch some bad players off guard but all it takes is two seconds to recognise that (in general I might add - this isn't a specific situation):

- He can't last 5 seconds toe-to-toe without his shield on. His stats are like an early game regulus. What do you do to fix this? Buy some 1.5k armor items but now you don't have a HoL.

- His speed is terrible because he can't afford wand of speed and boots. Couple this with his 5 seconds of survivability and what do you get? Uselessness.

- His damage is bad because you lost two skill points to rank 3 shield by level 7. You just took away 80 weapon damage, a huge bunch of spirits, or a mix of both.

- Bad damage, low speed, low tanking ability = no chasing anyone down.

As soon as you fix these problems even partially, you no longer have the gold to buy a heart of life.

And what do you get? 6 seconds of autoattack and a health/mana refresh. You are refreshing an hp pool that lasts 5 seconds. 2v2 this is a complete write-off. 1v1 harassment it might work if you were against a very specific opponent like, oh, maybe fire torchbearer who didn't buy armor? Someone who also could take very few hits, couldn't chase to punish and whose offensive combo was nullified by an hp refresh...

Now, Oak classic is a pain to fight (although I very rarely even see one...). He hits hard, takes a lot of hits and has a bunch of tools. If he had an hp and mana refresh then that would be powerful. The problem is it's either one or the other. Unless of course someone is feeding.

So, yeah. HoL is lategame for Oak at best (and hey, what about citadel upagrades?) and at that point, it's just not that good. 1800 is 1/3 of your hp, everyone has potions anyway, mana is easy to get, everyone could have bought one if they wanted to, etc, etc, etc. Maybe buy it if you have extra gold and there are the right opponents, otherwise, meh.

What do you sacrifice. Tell me a specific and i'll believe you. You sacrifice a lot isn't good enough.

I've played against lieu and as torchbearer i DOUBLED his favor endgame and even had more kills. He played with malice (if thats the right person) who is a sedna and i only died ONE MORE TIME THAN HE DID. He was using the shield HoL thing MOST of the game.

This is funny.

For a detailed list of what you sacrifice, refer to my recent post.

Favour? You're using that to compare? And we were on the same team. Are you kidding me? Bonus favour is determined after you've won; half the kills come at the end just farming them, mass aoe for damage/gold/grunts bonus at the end, kill streak pure luck, etc. Favour is a terrible measure. And a torchbearer getting a lot of rewards and damage for aoeing stuff?

Here's a thought: Judge performance on the game itself. And the game was just another average/below average stomp, no decent competition, no test of anything. Also, judging from 1 game?

Loving those endgame statistics are we?

This is the best bit. I never used shield+HoL the entire game. I didn't even own a HoL until the last 2 minutes beating on the towers around their citadel, overflowing with gold.

Maybe this is the problem? You're deluded into thinking all these oaks are using shield+HoL when it's just priests and other healing? There was a sedna on our team as you noticed but you didn't put 2 and 2 together.

Seriously, wow. Not even owning a HoL or even having shield 3 becomes using shield+HoL most of the match?

Either you see phantom HoLs all over the place and hence this thread or you are willing to flat out lie. Either way, it explains a lot.

Edit: Just realised you said you played against me. You were on our team and it was a steamroll. Maybe you were confusing me for someone else? Nope, you mention sedna (Malice).

Double Post...

Or that same TB could be having Scalemail, Banded and BoTF instead and could be knowing that Ice Mark gives him +70 damage/15 second buff and not ever have to run from you.

Classic Oak in my opinion would be:

Raise Dead Ward IV
Soul Power I
Penitence IV
Divine Justice I
Shield usually to level III for the dispel
Surge Of Faith III

4 points left...

Spirits and very strong Auto-attack early supplemented with Penitence for finishing, priests, lots of hp/armor.  Later on - Lots of staying power with Divine Justice and Shield.  Surge of Faith after level 10, for mass farming and Buffs.

Don't forget that penitence is arguably the best interrupt - instant with a decent range and low cooldown.  It's debuff is solid, but it's even better if you manage to cancel an enemy cast, so often it is better not to expend it as soon as you're in range.

Minions are only worthwile early game and as fodder late game.  Investing in morale is a waste!

Soul Power at 8??? Waiting for more spirits??? That is completely broken and uninformed view on building Oak.  Death Ward I + Sould Power I gives +60 damage...damn sure it's worthwile!

Getting penitence first is a total waste imho.  You're not gonna scare any half decent DG with 200 damage and you will run out of mana after 2 of them.  Especially UB - you nib him for 200, he laughs and spits you for 500, then chases you down with 2500hp remaing.  You're out of the lane soon after.

However getting Death Ward at level 1, then Soul Power at level 2 will give you +60 damage really really fast.  Whoever understimates that at level 2 dies real quick.

Surge of faith at level 5 is bullshit, you neither have the mana nor is it any better for killing creeps.  You still have to hit them to kill them so might as well just use autoattack.  Surge of Faith only starts shinning with mid-late game Oak.

Personally I don't find early divine justice any good.  Late game it rocks.

Shield is an awesome tool.  A noob Oak thinks 3 second invulnerability is bullshit.  Good Oak thinks Shield blocks some very strong abilities and along with the best interrupt - penitence, really kills some DGs.  At level 3 it gets even better with a dispel.  No need to get it any higher, but damn sure a lot more worhtwile skill than Morale.

Penitence also interrupts mines, fireball, circle of fire and if you're good some more (sedna heal included).

Spirits are terrible at chasing moving opponents and highly vulnerable to AoE.  Late game they just aren't up to the task, might as well leave them home just for the +damage bonus

k thx 4 the tips Misfortune, but I forgot to mention that I only use the skills listed, not in that order, morale indeed sux, had 2 see that 1 comin and where did I say shield ain't good?? It saved me many times and thus I think it's great! 

Though I guess ur right about the minions... they are fodder in late game!!!    Death ward does give an armor bonus at higher lvl's so it's usefull to plant 1, even if u don't use the spirits anymore.

(Well, this kind of turned into a wall of text)

Actually, soul power gives +40 for every rank. +20 static and +20 if you have a spirit alive, just like rank 1. You can test it.

Spirit ward vs soul power is interesting and usually match dependent. Spirits do more pure dps, but they have huge trouble chasing. Towers obliterate them, yet they are useful as fodder when killing a tower. Aoe destroys them quickly, but then you can get them back quickly too. Soul power is great for chasing, not quite as good when standing your ground. Don't forget rank 3 soul ward gives 200 armor and rank 4 gives 400 to everything allied. 8% or 16% more ehp from your base hp. Spirits can also be sent anywhere.

So, spirit ward is at its best when:

- Toe-to-toe conflicts or allied toe-to-toe conflicts where your spirits can be sent over

- Lots of autoattack

- 2v2s or higher are happening, dangerous to go in

- Fighting in open spaces without towers

Soul power is at its best when:

- Enemy is covered by towers

- Lots of aoe

- Enemy is fast / hits and runs / not in combat for long

The biggest factor I find is whether your enemy is relying on nearby tower cover or not. Towers are what stop your spirits in their tracks. Still, usually spirits are better unless you are steamrolling someone. Also it comes down to your point spending because spirit wards are not equal. Rank 3 ward is usually far better than a rank of soul power. The ward nets you +20 damage going past 6 spirits, you get more spirits, stronger spirits and 8% ehp for everyone. Soul power only offers +20 more damage than ward 3.

Ward 2, however is 2 spirits vs +40 damage. Except it isn't, not really. Ward 2 offers 2 wards instead of 1, extremely useful in many situations, and importantly you can actually use your spirits more. 3 spirits die easily and come back slower - using them will often lose you your +20 damage for having 3 alive. Hovering between 3-5 spirits you keep than bonus while at the same time using your spirits to a much further extent.

So it's like 3 different skills and you have 1-2 points usually. One point to use before lvl 10? Then it's ward 2 vs soul power 2. 2 points? Then you will likely get ward 3 early because it's awesome. But then maybe you're against a tb+reg+x team playing defensively and 3 ranks of soul power let you rip their faces off.

So many factors. You can even have the best of both worlds. You can go up both lines before level 10, playing a really focused dueling build. Usually happens in a 2v2 where it comes down to 1v1s a lot and you simply don't need surge of faith until later. It also usually happens more in a close game - when you're winning you usually need to pck up surge of faith 2 for pushing.

Also, penitence vs soul ward at level 1. It depends. Penitence 1 isn't for pecking someone. It's for when you've just gotten into melee and you put it between two autoattacks, not losing any damage, slowing them so you can be sure of nice follow-up hits. It's 4 autoattacks when ward+soul power bonus damage beats penitence 1 for damage. Better when laning straight away, but penitence is more of a team thing. Best example: xp flag in cataract. Both teams try and secure it and it's very important. You can't even get spirits here, but even if you could, penitence does more when 2 people are attacking the target. Both the 7% slow and 7% more damage make sure of this.

Is it worth delaying ward+soul power for 1 level? On cata I'd say yes, if you think you can win the middle. (especially since you'll hit 3 very fast after that). On other maps? Going straight to lane 1v1? Ward+soul power is better. Somewhere in between it's 50/50.

Sorry i had to do this. 100 posts WOOOO