Hehehe! Why thank you Baker; that's got to be a first.

But, any way, under God or not, I just find the whole idea of saying every day "I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, etc." really creepy. 

So, BakerStreet, you're saying that kids don't HAVE to say it?  If they so choose, or their parents, they are allowed to sit back and watch everybody else get brain washed? I was under the impression they had to, with all the fuss of the original story of that father.

Actually, IPlural, if anything, it should be the governement that pledges allegiance to the people of the United States of America, not the other way around.

The original pledge was:

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

Quite different than what it is now.

However, I see no problem in the word "God".  It doesn't claim a certain faith.  It is not saying "Christian God".  I'm not religious at all, and I still have no problem with the word.  People have to fight over the most insignificant things....

I remember in school when I was alittle girl standing there being assembled in line on the playground and being told to put my hand on my heart and say that stupid pledge w/ all the other kids...
(course I never knew what the words were so I just stood there, usually the teacher yelling at me to keep my hand on my heart)
never even knew what in the world these ppl around me are doing this for? I felt so stupid but you had to do it everyday before you went into class...
It serves no purpose I think to make kids do that silly pledge...
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That is the insidious nature of playing to one special interest group, it always comes back around to bite you in the end.

Maybe there should be a National Vote to decide for once and all....

Is the USA a Christian Nation, period and at that point they should put God on everything and jail all of us who refuse to take part in the dogma, while covering women and female children so men do not have evil thoughts and beat them in public if they show something as offensive as an ankle. Oh wait...

naaa, wouldn't work, then we couldn't have a war on Islam

I think it's a bit more complex as you peal the layers off and start addressing the issues one by one. But for a fact, they need to stop pandering to special interest groups of all camps and lobbying should be ended and the elc-college should be disovled as part of the political process. It served it's purpose and now is nothing more than a political tool of those who are funded by special interest on both sides.

and no I do not think we are at war with Islam...

it was sarcasm on my part

But Java didn't it feel wrong to be told to stand in line and forced to say that? It made me feel ackward and strange I hated it...

Java what are the words "now" to that pledge exactly?
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I'm in high school(public), before they they start the pledge allegiance they ask everyone to be silent for a 30 sec prayer(i guess pray for the school).

Doreen, yes I also noticed that in the 60's when I was in grade school...
Also saying school prayer every morning was something that really bothered me...

Milford Beach Connecticut 1969 , Ansonia Connecticut 1970 and then a move to Largo Florida 1972
changed everything, then it was only the pledge...

My daughter was asked by a young girl in her class if she goes to church and when Shelby said no, she was laughed at, picked on and told she was going to hell while also being totally stupid as a rock because God knows she doesn't believe in him.

This happened last grading period, at that point I told my daughter when someone asks her something personal to tell them to mind their own business and ignore them. If they push her as has happened since then I have told her to warn them once to keep their hands off her and if they do it again to make use of her right to protect herself and we would deal with the out come when it came.

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KarmaGril, but that *is* the assumption, that it is in fact a Christian God this Nation bows to and was built worshiping.

That is why I feel it hsould be removed and recited by the origional text and then those who want to push religion into public schools and every manner of life can fight their fight out in the open from behind the smoke and mirrors and those who wish to fight against that happening can do the same.

Z06 30 second prayer??? what kind of decent prayer can you say in 30 seconds... hehe!

yeah IP I remember always getting yelled at in line cuz I did not want to put my hand on my heart and do that pledge it always felt ackward and stupid for me...

#32 by Doreen - 11/4/2003 3:15:44 PM But Java didn't it feel wrong to be told to stand in line and forced to say that? It made me feel ackward and strange I hated it... Java what are the words "now" to that pledge exactly?

No.  I never felt odd.  i come from a family that has been in the military.  My Grandfather was in WWII, my Dad was in the army during Vietnam.  The pledge has always been an affirmation of my belief in this country.  I never cared about the "God" part, and I never saw it as "Christian".

The pledge is: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

The full Star Spangled Banner (We only ever hear the first verse) also has: "And this be our motto: In God is our trust." in it  

hehe! I just asked my son what the pledge is and he don't know it either, he gets as far as the word America... hehe
(must run in the blood)

I don't know, I never pray during that time

Thanks Java, I was had just asked my son cuz I was curious if he knew it since he has to say it everyday, and he just told me he hates doing it and does not know all the words either... hehe
(no he's not playing hooky from school he is out sick right now)

Here's a brief outline of the history of the pledge.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

But the thing with pledging to the flag, isn't real anymore. Once they allowed malcontents to burn it any collective meaning went POOF in smoke the first one that was burned legally when they expressed freedom of *speech* with that action. As for freedom of speech, they have that right by court decision to express their *voice* by burning the flag and I have the right to voice mine by beating the snot out of anyone expressing theirs by burning a flag in my presence

For that I would AND will willingly sit in jail any time...

I guess the question comes into play on weather the Flag represents a flawed and self possessive Government of Professional Liars, Thieves and self determined manipulators, or the people that that same government is supposed to represent? If it is a flag of that self described government then it's just color on cloth, if it is the people, the nation and those who have and will die to protect it, then it is beyond reproach and should never be allowed to be desecrated.

The duality seems to ebb and flow around any and all decisions of choice... which is one of the defining things behind the concept of freedom.


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I think it's a good thing that the pledge be recited. There are other pledges we make to ourselves everyday that involve the security and sense of self that we reap from belonging to a community of like minded people. A 'pledge' is a promise...it doesn't mean you relinquish your individuality nor does it mean that you have to be a blind 'we follow anybody' robot to everything that your institution does. It means that with your chosen companions you retain a respect and adherence to common values and believe it is your obligation to protect and contribute to them. If I find that what happens in the name of Old Glory isn't quite right then there are avenues within the limits of law and morality that I can take to help rectify it. I'm not thrilled with the way our government handles everything...and sometimes I resent horribly the misdeeds and deceptions that seem to be riddling the political arenas...but that will not ever EVER change the fact that this is my homeland...I have a right to pledge my loyalty my life and my soul to it if I see fit. Thank God this is a country that we can do that! I think maybe some real changes need to be made in order to bring us truly into the world arena without committing financial suicide...but I won't NOT say my pledge to my country and my standard in order to achieve those changes!

footsie: I have a right to pledge my loyalty my life and my soul to it if I see fit. Thank God this is a country that we can do that!

But, in the land of the free, doesn't it seem wrong to you that kids MUST recite that every day?  Should a pledge be a voluntary act?  Doesn't freedom of speech include the right to dissention?

Anyway, I wonder if there are many countries like the US. It's quite interesting.  Frankly, in Canada, most people don't give a hoot about their Country, as a symbol. It's just where we live, and where we are happy. Nothing too exciting.  We feel the most patriotic during the Olympics, where we get to cheer for our country, other than that... I guess it's just the place we chose to make our home. *shrug*

Paxx: like I said, there is no requirement to say it. Various religious groups don't, and I didn't half the time when I was in school. To my knowledge there is no law or government mandate on the books that says anyone has to. It is just a 'citizenship' type thing that is taken for granted.

The gist of the lawsuit is that even if the guy's daughter abstains, there is still force applied when the school leads the kids in the pledge. His point is she shouldn't have to abstain from a religious act in a public school, and frankly it is hard to see fault in that logic.



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Children, although they must retain the right to be PROTECTED by the law should not claim the same rights that adults should. It is still up to responsible adults to make responsible decisions for the innocents in their care. The above is my opinion. I don't require you to agree with it. I simply ask that you respect my right to voice it. That IS what you mean by free speech isn't it?

Of course, I respect your right to voice it. I never said otherwise.
I also agree that children don't have the same rights as adults, of course. They are still in the process of learning the right from the wrong. But it seems to me in a practice where every child is expected to say the pledge to the flag, if a parent protests and says that he doesn't want his child to say it (as it seems he has the right to do, according to Bakerstreet), the child is placed in a situation of exclusion where he will feel put aside, simply because his parent doesn't agree with something.

When I was a kid, we had catholic class. But the parent at the beginning of the year, had the right to write a note saying that he didn't want his child to attend that class. In such cases, the child in question spent the class time in the library - basically as a reject. I didn't believe in God, actually, I wasn't even sure what God was - something like Santa I figured. Anyway, I begged my parents NOT to write that note, because I didn't was to be rejected because of it, although it was the most boring class on earth. Anyway, the bottom line is, although I and my parents didn't believe in something, I still had to opt in because the situation kind of made it hard to reject it.  A few years later, things changed, instead of going to the library, kids who didn't want catholic class, had another class instead, called "morals" - which was basically the exact same class except with the words "God", "Jesus" and all of those things purged out. The result was much better, and there ended being more kids in those classes than in religion class.

Duality kind of odd how it shows it's at times ugly head...[

quote]Children, although they must retain the right to be PROTECTED by the law should not claim the same rights that adults should.

I mean it is so evil to have video games up to the age of 18 at that specific moment in time that they are not 18 anymore and are considered an adult where they kill without thought and at that moment to think they are equipped to go kill and die in the name of what *WE* call just, of course that is as long as it is others children for the most part.


sheesh... Why teach life is so important, and fight so hard to create a life where the violence is limited and then stand so fast on how well they understand what they got themselves into when they go and die or kill for OUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS?

Better yet why don't we decide how many should die before we go to war to solve the issue and just shoot them in a hole they dug with Media swarming around and everyone one in tears claiming how just it was they gave their life to fulfill our desired goals?

screw Bush and Screw Clinton, if we wanted to do anything positive about Iraq we would not have sold and gave them WMD's to being with and we would not have supported them to fight a war with Iran we did not want to spend American lives on...

ok lets look at the definition of terrorisum without applying anything else but the facts..

anyone care to play that game?

if you do, understand we will have to look at the history of your nation, including the USA which wil prove out why they can not come up with a global legal definition of what terrorisum is. They can apply what is accepted at the moment, but only un to the point that they fall over the line and assume that position then things change...

go figure

No problem with the 'under God' part.

I don't think they will take it or they will end up over turning it.

It is not that big a deal.


The real question is why are they being made to say the pledge anyway. Its just a tradition and somehow it ended up in the courts.

The point is, I think, that this country (USA) was founded on princibles surrounding God, and God was used as a connerstone of our constitution and a bases for our country.

Take God out of this country and we will not stand for long.