Ideology Traits: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

I wanted to do a comprehensive review of every ideology trait, but I'll have to wait and see how the game develops. 

I want to start off by saying that, on the whole, I am very happy with the ideology system. It promises to make for a lot of interesting and varied games.

There are, however, a couple of problems that I think should be addressed. 

The first is that some of the ideology traits have an uncertain value because they aren't described well enough.

Here are some examples:

Amiable (Transparency Tier 1): It just says that it improves trade values. This leaves me with two questions. What exactly does that mean? And how much difference in the trade values will this make? Without the answers to these questions, I can't make an intelligent decision about whether to take this trait.

Reliable (Transparency Tier 5): Other races will trade with us more favorably. If I had to guess, I would say that this is what "improves trade values" means. So we have two traits that affect the same thing and no indication as to what relative degree they affect that thing. You have a similar problem with Popular (Compassion) and Unique Voice (Harmony).

Prepared (Harmony Tier 4, I think): Ships Heal Faster. How much faster?

These are just a few examples.

The other problem is that there are some traits that ridiculously underpowered, bordering on completely useless. 

Negotiators (Tier 2 Transparency): 1 Diplomatic Capital per turn

This trait is absolutely awful. Even if this were a Tier 1 trait, I still don't think I would take this unless I absolutely needed it for the extra Transparency awareness. Diplomatic Capital is worth so little, that I usually don't bother even trading it in amounts smaller than 50. So basically this trait does nothing for 50 turns, and then all I get is a slightly more beneficial trade. In theory, of course, you can just trade diplomatic capital for gold as part of your trade deals, but you can only trade with each civ every so often, and in the early game you haven't met many civs, so it's possible you'll be waiting a long time to get a good deal.

The one thing that can be said in defense of this trait is that it is part of the Transparency tree, which offers ways to get better trade deals, making the Diplomatic Capital more valuable. This, however, requires you to invest at least 2-3 points in the transparency tree, foregoing other sexier ideology traits. I just don't see how that can be worth it. Even if I'm taking the better trade values, I don't see how the diplomatic capital is a fair exchange for a culture point.

This trait would be much better if it gave a lump sum of diplomatic capital, or credits per turn instead of diplomatic capital.

Devotion (Tradition Tier 5): 1 Control per turn

This trait itself isn't a problem, but its position in the ideology tree is. Tier 5 should be full of capstones, big game changers that you want to build towards. Devotion looks more like it belongs to Tier 1 or 2. In fact it is very similar to another Tier 1 trait, Iron Fist in the Authority tree, which gives an immediate +50 Control. Between the two, Iron Fist is actually superior for the first 50 turns after assigning the culture point. What is more, Iron Fist comes early, letting you use that 50 control when in matters most, allowing you to scout with the telescope and send out more colonists or acquire necessary funds. By contrast, you're probably not taking Devotion any earlier than turn 50, by which time the pace of the game has mostly settled down, and you still won't be at +50 control from Devotion until turn 100.

Representation (Equality Tier 2): 8% colony approval

I mention this one because it is useless in the game right now, but I get the feeling that colony approval is going to become more relevant in a future update.

Opportunity

I forgot to write down the name of the trait, because I wasn't going to mention it here because it's really more of a bug, but the one that gives an approval bonus when you hire a leader doesn't appear to be working right now.

Consensus (Compassion Tier 5): Basically, if any civ invades your home planet, everyone declares war on them.

The principal reason you would want this trait is if you are trying to win by peaceful means and have a weak military and/or small empire. But notice that if your home world is actually being invaded, this does absolutely nothing to save you. All it does is force everyone into a state of war, but it doesn't automatically make them come to your rescue. So this trait is primarily useful as a disincentive. It keeps your enemies from invading your home world because they don't want to face the negative consequences off all-out war.

There are two problems, however. First, it can only work as a disincentive if your opponent knows that you have this trait. Since the human player has no way to tell what traits the AI has chosen, I'm going to assume that the AI has no knowledge of what traits the human player has taken either. Even if the AI did know that, would really it be able to weigh the consequences of its action? That seems doubtful. Second, assuming the disincentive does in fact work, it only applies to the home world. You can watch your entire empire be dismantled without your enemies ever stepping foot on your home planet. This is true even if you're playing some one-hit-wonder strategy with the Baratak because your home world still needs its colonies to "feed" it, and the penalty only gets triggered if your starting planet is invaded.

On top of all that, it is unclear from the wording whether this penalty gets triggered during or after an invasion. It's possible that that it only takes effect once you've actually lost your home planet. In which case, you're still probably going to lose the game.

The one thing I can think of that might make this trait worthwhile is the fact that the AI tends to become much more amenable to peace negotiations when they are at war with other civs. If the declarations of war get triggered after a successful invasion, this is hardly helpful because you can't negotiate peace when you need to retake your home planet (or you will, more than likely, lose the game). If, on the other, the declaration of war come out at the start of the invasion, then this could allow you to negotiate peace and save your home planet. Even in this case, I still don't think this trait is good because it relies on a sort of "glitch" in the AI to want to come to terms, when what it should do (obviously) is finish you off while you're at their mercy before turning to deal with the other civs. That seems to me to be just poor game design. One aspect of the game (Consensus) shouldn't only be good because another aspect of the game (AI decision making) is bad.

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Reply #1 Top

I think the ideology mechanic looks great on paper but in reality it is crap as of now (Beta 0.91). They could delete it tomorrow and it wouldn't negatively impact the game, except for the Baratak Grove who get an artifact for each culture point. The culture point choices are mostly terrible. The cheaper leaders one is good. The free leader one is good. Eurekas is good. The increased starbase range one is situationally good. More than half of them I wouldn't choose under any circumstances. Making us pick the same thing every time is just a waste of time and is not in any way more fun.

To make things worse, moderators have hinted that they won't fix the "blocking events" problem until after 1.0 so you're on your own to remember the entire ideology tree and citizen ideologies (or keep a separate log). In addition, since they didn't bother to give each race a unique ideology (how come I am the first one to notice this?), you'll get a -1 to diplomacy across the board if you don't choose the authority path. This state of affairs is part of the reason I think Stardock is nowhere near ready to release this game to the general public.

If I were them, I'd get rid of culture points entirely, dole those awards based on ideological discovery (fibonacci sequence would probably work for costs), and give the Baratak their artifacts based on how many policies they have unlocked. Up to 7 juicy colony worlds is probably plenty. Events that currently award a free culture point can just award a free ideological discovery (any of the 14). That would be plenty of an award for the privilege of documenting my leader's awesomeness. They would eventually need to balance the awards somewhat but since they have basically ignored this mechanic since they realized (correctly) that an axis or two was insufficient (somewhere in middle of the Alpha period), they could continue to do so indefinitely.

Reply #2 Top

Thank you for the feedback, I'll be sure to share it with the team.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting slarjy, reply 1

I think the ideology mechanic looks great on paper but in reality it is crap as of now (Beta 0.91). 
End of slarjy's quote

I strongly disagree.  I thoroughly enjoy looking through all of the ideology traits and trying to figure-out which ones I want to get.  Then, making decisions throughout the game to get points in the desired ideology so that I can eventually get the desired trait.  I think this contributes to the strategic planning and decision making aspects of the game that, for me, make it so enjoyable.

As a side note, my favorite traits are:

  • Early game:
    • Self-Governance (for the approval boost and free leader)
    • Ambition (cheaper to hire leaders)
  • Mid-game:
    • Mobility Rights (extends the range of starbases)
    • Poaching (you keep the leaders of captured core worlds)
    • Planning (+10 logistics, important for building fleets)
  • Late game:
    • Perfect Production (20% manufacturing boost)
    • Worker's Party (20% manufacturing boost if your worlds are happy)
    • Cooperative (no penalty for overcrowding)
Reply #4 Top

Quoting PaulLach, reply 3

As a side note, my favorite traits are:

 
    • Early game:

        • Self-Governance (for the approval boost and free leader)

        • Ambition (cheaper to hire leaders)


 

    • Mid-game:

        • Mobility Rights (extends the range of starbases)

        • Poaching (you keep the leaders of captured core worlds)

        • Planning (+10 logistics, important for building fleets)


 

    • Late game:

        • Perfect Production (20% manufacturing boost)

        • Worker's Party (20% manufacturing boost if your worlds are happy)

        • Cooperative (no penalty for overcrowding)
End of PaulLach's quote

Those are everyone's favorite traits. The first three you mentioned are all ones I mentioned. (For brevity, I didn't get into the late game ones.) The only one you didn't mention was Eurekas which is pretty good as long as your survey ships are not occupied by war. The rest are mostly terrible either because their benefits are lame or because they are completely irrelevant to the play style the game forces you into — dominate your starting sector or else.

If Stardock actually figured a way to implement multiple viable paths to victory then this mechanic could work if they put more time into making different ideologies meaningful. However, they have shown zero inclination to altering their core mechanics at this stage of the beta.

Reply #5 Top

This is great feedback, thank you. I'm going to make the following changes:

Representation- All colonies generate Influence.

Devotion- +2 Control per Turn and all leaders get the Tradition ideology.

Negotiators- +3 Diplomatic Capital per turn.

Planning- +8 Logistics (instead of +10).

Please continue to let me know what are your favorite and least favorite culture traits.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting DerekPaxton, reply 5

Representation- All colonies generate Influence.
End of DerekPaxton's quote

Don't they already?

Reply #7 Top

Are there other culture traits people would like to see added?

Reply #8 Top

Quoting DerekPaxton, reply 7

Are there other culture traits people would like to see added?
End of DerekPaxton's quote

well i have noticed that whenever i play (or think about setting up the AI for) a silicon or synthetic civ i always end up going with creativity a lot because not only is it a great tree with lots of good stuff, but it's also hands down the best for mining resources. 3 free constructors plus the .1 mining boost really help gets those civs the promethion and durantium they need. The Liberty ideology does have that +2 starbase range, while is really nice, but the rest of the tree is a little lacking, i think. maybe if something else in the liberty tree increased mining by a %, or made constructor vessels cost a lot less, it would be a good compliment to go with that +2 starbase range. as a player i can just go for the best mining ones if i want to focus on that, but the AI has to pick one tree to focus on so i think that there should be 2 ideologies that can focus on mining resources, since it's such a big thing in the game too.

this is def a smaller, low priority thing though, maybe post-release. just something i noticed.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting DerekPaxton, reply 7

Are there other culture traits people would like to see added?
End of DerekPaxton's quote

Not necessarily but I'd change almost all of them. The +2% for everything is a joke, you'll barely notice. If you want to jump-start productivity, have it add +1 of everything to your capital instead. Then it will have an benefit the whole game, though that effect will obviously be magnified at the beginning.

Anything that gives a fixed benefit is bad because it scales poorly throughout the game. (Save those things for executive orders. Actually, that might be a good mechanic, spend a point to unlock an executive order to do something useful like get a constructor. It least you would get a benefit the whole game.)

Notice that two players who have opposing views of this mechanic came to almost identical lists of what are good traits. There should be a reason for at least some races to consider each path and right now there really isn't. 

Reply #10 Top

To replace consensus, maybe something like this:

When at war, get +2 to diplomacy with all races you aren't at war with. 

Reply #11 Top

The Secrecy tree desperately needs to be revamped.

I thought before that it was probably the weakest tree. After playing a game with the Iconians (who have Secrecy as their primary ideology), I am now convinced of this. You can find my thoughts about the Iconians here.

In this post, I'm going to take a deep dive into everything wrong with the Secrecy tree. Without any further ado, let's get into it. 

Silver Tongue: +5 Deception

I don't feel like deception plays a big enough role in the game currently to justify taking this ideology point. At the same time, there are traits in other trees that benefit Persuasion and Intimation, so at least there's some evenness there. The primary benefit of taking one of these three traits is actually the ideology awareness it offers, not the benefit that listed in the text. Silver Tongue is therefore the worst of these three traits because, as we will see, Secrecy has almost nothing to offer, and therefore extra awareness in Secrecy is practically worthless.

Criminal Ties: Ally with the Pirates

This is a cool idea, but I don't think it's actually very useful. The benefit from this trait is three-fold: you won't accidentally lose any probes or freighters, your ships won't be "pinned down" defending colonies next to pirate bases, and you can get some reconnaissance and security from nearby pirates. On the other hand, you'll miss out on some "experience farms" for your ships. You'll also lose the benefit of the pirate bases as the game goes on, because the other civs will start clearing them out. The exception to this is that if the pirate bases are within your sphere of influence, you can actually take steps to preserve them by kicking out ships from other civs (and incurring a diplomatic penalty).

My criticism of this trait is that it is useless for the Xeloxi, who are already allied with the pirates. Because of the Crime Lords trait, the Xeloxi are the one race that might actually want to progress down the Secrecy tree; and yet this trait, which helps you progress down the Secrecy tree, is useless to them. Criminal Ties might be useful to the Iconians to help stave off military defeat, but I have strong doubts.

Darkness: -1 to moves and sensor range to enemy ships in our territory

This is the one trait from this tree that I actually like, and that is because it enables certain strategies for civs that aren't using primarily the Secrecy tree. For example, I can play the Arceans and get Mobility Rights from the Liberty Tree and add Darkness and a few other traits to enable a strategy where I build military starbases (with the upgrades that also reduce enemy movement), so that I have disgusting military advantage over my opponents. At t3, Darkness isn't too hard to get while ignoring the rest of the tree.

The one bad thing about Darkness is how poorly in synergizes for the Iconians who--despite having Secrecy as their primary ideology--can't really benefit that much from Darkness because of their poor influence.

Paranoia: All leaders gain the paranoia trait.

This allows you to keep the governors if you've lost a core world. Whether you pick is entirely situational based on whether you feel like you're losing the game. If you are losing the game, keeping your governor might not be enough to save you. This trait does gain more utility for races that have a negative modifier to their resistance, because they are more likely to lose a core world that they later regain.

The big problem here is just that most of the time, you won't want this trait. And because that is true for all the other traits we've seen so far, you don't actually have a way to progress down the Secrecy without taking subpar traits.

Crime Lords: 3 free leaders, +3% crime

If you are playing Xeloxi and you have the Secrecy awareness to get this trait, take it. If you are not playing the Xeloxi, think very carefully before you do. The leaders are randomly generated, so there's a good chance they won't be much use to you. You may even have to execute one if they've got the +3% crime trait. I would only take this if I knew I already had negative crime or felt desperate for more leaders. Coming this far down the tree, this is not the best trait.

Hidden Agenda: No one will declare war on you for 50 turns.

This is the capstone of the Secrecy Tree. It's the only reason you would even want to invest in Secrecy at all. It's a temporary benefit that does absolutely nothing for you past those 50 turns.

In GC3, there was similar trait offered to Pragmatic races. The major difference was that there it was offered toward the beginning so that one could take it early in the game. That could allow a weaker race (like the Thalans) to survive a rough patch, until later in the game when some of their strengths started to kick in. You don't have that option in GC4. Hidden Agenda is really only useful now in a game where you know you are going to win within 50 turns if no one declares war on you.

It's definitely a good trait if you are on the cusp of winning. Unfortunately, the Secrecy tree does almost nothing to get you to that point. You would be better off taking traits that actually help grow your empire.

The only circumstance in which I would be likely to take Hidden Agenda is if I was close to achieving a non-domination victory and had happened to get enough Secrecy awareness through events. Mind you, all other things being equal I would never choose to gain Secrecy awareness over another kind of awareness, so it's probable I would not have sufficient Secrecy awareness.

 

In conclusion, Secrecy is the weakest tree because it has to many situational traits. While these are not bad in themselves, putting them all together in one tree severely penalizes races that start with that as their ideology (i.e., the Iconians). Secrecy needs more traits that are always good, like the Creativity tree has now. 

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Reply #12 Top

Quoting Arcean_Endgame, reply 11

The Secrecy tree desperately needs to be revamped.

I thought before that it was probably the weakest tree. After playing a game with the Iconians (who have Secrecy as their primary ideology), I am now convinced of this. You can find my thoughts about the Iconians here.

[...]

In conclusion, Secrecy is the weakest tree because it has to many situational traits. While these are not bad in themselves, putting them all together in one tree severely penalizes races that start with that as their ideology (i.e., the Iconians). Secrecy needs more traits that are always good, like the Creativity tree has now. 
End of Arcean_Endgame's quote

Arcean,

Great Post!

I'll keep my commentary to the Tier-2 and Tier-capstone Secrecy Ideologies - but agree that they could all use a revamp for the reasons you outlined (the "Deception" thing might be good if the Deception/Influential/Intimidating/etc traits had a stronger presence in-game tho!).

I advocated in the past in my Xeloxi writeup that the Secrecy-2 "Criminal Ties" Ideology should be removed.  Because a "hard" pirate alliance should be a Xeloxi-only thing.  Secondarily, not only does it short-change the Xeloxi (who are a faction who would be likely to be 'secretive', if you think about it) by being useless to them, but the trait just isn't that terrific anyway.  Perhaps if pirates became stronger and stronger like the mobs in Elemental/FE as the game progressed, this Ideology would be good - but it's tough to imagine anyone taking it as things stand currently.

I actually like "Hidden Agenda" but it is very situational.  If you recall in the Ideology system for GC3 there were multiple anti-war traits you could acquire by going up the same tree.  This actually allowed for a "prevent war" strat where you could focus on other stuff, then use these ideologies to avoid being attacked.  This was totally legit, and worked very well as a gameplay system IMO.  I would like to see a similar opportunity for this strategy in GC4.  (in GC3 the "50 turns of no war" was available early).

It's with the above in mind that I would propose the following:

Tier-2:

Remove: "Criminal Ties" entirely.

Move: "Hidden Agenda" to Tier-2

Add: an additional Tier-2 ideology that may be chosen to get a free survey ship (maybe even with guns on it like the starting one), this can be called: "Veiled Discoveries" or something else that seems appropriate.

 

Tier-capstone:

Add: something similar to the GC3 top tier Pragmatic/Negotiator tree: 'Venerable'.  Maybe other factions will declare war on any civ that declares war on player.  This could be called "Secret Alliances," "Shadow Alliances" or something else appropriate.

Add: Something else capstone-ish that would be appropriate for a player not pursuing an anti-war strat (I'm not opinionated at this time on what that should be). 

BTW: I found it instructive to revisit the GC3 ideologies, as I was having trouble recalling what specifically they were.

https://galciv3.fandom.com/wiki/Ideology

Very nice analysis of the Secrecy Ideologies, btw,

-tid242

Reply #13 Top

TBH, they need to sweep through the entire ideology tree and answer three questions.

  1. Has it been demonstrated to work properly?
  2. Does it make sense?
  3. Would anyone logically want to spend a precious culture point there?

Based on forum feedback, I estimate that no more than 90% of culture points actually work as intended. It wouldn't surprise me if there were options that no one has ever purchased.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting PaulLach, reply 3


                Self-Governance (for the approval boost and free leader)

End of PaulLach's quote


Please correct me if I am wrong. This said, the approval bonus is only applied to colonies hence unimportant. The free leader is nice though.

I like Iron First for 50 control. This is great at start to keep up the colony ship spam. Mobility Rights (+2 starbase range) is great too.

One of my favorites is Kindness. This gives approval to Core Worlds. +1% for each Compassion Awareness point. I like to generate income by planets, trade and tourism so this is very welcome (higher taxes). Incentives is great too (+10 loyalty to all leaders). Same reason (loyalty -> approval -> income).

Opportunity traits to lower the cost of leaders and increase their number are good. I like to put a lot of leaders into factions.

Shared Purpose (+1 resolve to all citizens) is interesting. This could reduce the time for invasions significantelly.

One idea for a Culture Trait:
- Advanced Transports: reduce all decay by x %