Raw Production bug? » Forum Post by Surge72

Here we go. A real example showing what I think is an incorrect Raw Production:

2.5 Population, +5 Colony Capital, but 11 Production?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Looks right to me. 100% approval gives +25% base production, so you should have

1.25*(5 + 2*2.5^0.7) = 10.99786

production on your planet.

as my understanding was population = raw production, or is this a bug?

They really ought to update the GalCivIII Economy 101; they changed the production model from (population) = (production bonus) to (production bonus) = 2 *(population)^0.7 quite some time ago.

Edit: Ah, Colony tile gives +5 too, but still seems to be a 0.6 mismatch.

What's the approval rate of the colony? Approval modifies base production; check the influence growth or population growth or resistance to see what the percentage approval bonus to output is; at present, the bonus is the same for base production as for any of those.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Oh really? I had no idea. Sorry.

Guess this whole thread can be deleted then. They should probably also mention that production gets a bonus in the Approval tooltip. It currently only mentions Influence, Growth, and Resistance.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Don't worry about it; there's a fair number of people who missed that change, and it doesn't help that the most official information on the subject is outdated.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The bonuses from approval are shown in the tooltips for Growth, Influence, and Resistance, but not for any of the three production categories.

Successfully updated karma reason!

@Surge72

You are right, this is not clear.

Here is the curve for the Population to Production ratio:

Quote from this post:

https://forums.galciv3.com/462186/get;3528153

Yes, much simpler with the formula.

1B Pop gives 2 productions, 10B Pop gives 10 productions.

You can play with the curve here:

https://www.google.fr/webhp?hl=fr#hl=fr&q=y%3D2*x^.7

It seems there is a bonus applied by the approval level (not tested).

This should be clearly explained in the tooltip.

Raw Manufacturing: +11
* Colony Capital: +5
* Population: +3.8
* Approval Bonus: +25%

***** Edit *****

Not quick enough.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yep, this thread helped a lot. Notes made. ^^

@Devs: please add in the Tooltips

Successfully updated karma reason!

No... it is correct... the calculation is as follows,,,

Colony Capital +5

Population 2.5^0.7*2

Approval rating 100 = *1.25

(5+(2.5^0.7*2))*1.25 = 11

On a capital world it would be...

Empire Capital +10

Population 10^0.7*2

Approval Rating 50 = *1

(10+(10^0.7*2))*1 = 20

So, if you have slightly less than 20 on the home world that is probably because of a slight moral penalty of a couple of percent.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Perhaps total production should be calculated by:

(raw production bonuses + pop^(approval rating)) * (%bonuses)

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Unknown_Hero,

reply 6

This should be clearly explained in the tooltip.

Raw Manufacturing: +11
* Colony Capital: +5
* Population: +3.8
* Approval Bonus: +25%

The approval bonus is a bonus to base production, not to any of the three output types.

I.e. the output equations are:

Production = ((flat production) + 2 *(population)^0.7)*(approval multiplier)

Manufacturing = (manufacturing fraction)*(Production)*(manufacturing multiplier)

Research = (research fraction)*(Production)*(research multiplier)

Money = (money fraction)*(Production)*(money multiplier)

This means that the approval multiplier stacks multiplicatively with the output bonuses rather than additively; since all the bonuses in the tool tips stack additively, including the approval bonus in the tool tip would be deceptive or require a change to the formulas.

It would be better to have a breakdown of production showing the base production and any bonuses given to it somewhere, such as on the Govern Planet screen, if the formulas remain the same, rather than having the approval bonus included in the tool tips listing all the bonuses to each output type when the approval bonus doesn't stack in the same way that all the other bonuses in those tool tips do.

Quoting Wer900,

reply 9

Perhaps total production should be calculated by:

(raw production bonuses + pop^(approval rating)) * (%bonuses)

I think not. 0% approval gives a 25% penalty to base production, which is bad; your formula would more or less remove population from the equation at low levels of approval, which is generally far worse. I could go for pop^F(approval) for some function F that gives a reasonable range of exponents, but not for F(approval) = approval.

Additionally, this formulation hides the effect of approval from the player even more than the current form does (where it's a percentage penalty to the whole thing and simply isn't listed in the tool tip for the output types but can be determined from looking at the influence, population growth, or resistance tool tips). Consider - if the exponent on population is equal to the approval rate expressed as a decimal, what is the difference between 50% approval and 70% approval? How much of a penalty is it? ((base production) + (population)^0.5) / ((base production) + (population)^0.7) is not something that I can do in my head, nor is it something where the effects of approval can be easily quantified. ((base production) + H(population))*F(approval) is a function where the approval effects can easily be quantified, assuming you know what F(approval) is.

For the record, F(approval) is a piecewise linear function defined as follows:

F =

1 + ((approval) - 0.95) + 0.2 if approval > 0.95

1 + ((approval - 0.85)*0.5 + 0.15 if 0.95 >= approval > 0.85

1 + ((approval) - 0.7)*2/3 + 0.05 if 0.85 >= approval > 0.7

1 + ((approval) - 0.3)*0.25 - 0.05 if 0.7 >= approval > 0.3

1 + ((approval) - 0.15)*2/3 - 0.15 if 0.3 >= approval > 0.15

1 + ((approval) - 0.05)*0.5 - 0.2 if 0.15 >= approval > 0.05

1 + (approval) - 0.25 if 0.05 >= approval

A rough approximation of this is G(approval) = 1 + ((approval) - 0.5)^3 + 0.25*((approval) - 0.5).

Successfully updated karma reason!

@joeball123

I understand your point of view, but as I said, this should be clearly explained in the tooltip (taking into account the player's setting for the "wheel" (100% manufacturing in the OP screen)).

Something like this:

Manufacturing: XXX.X

Civilization Bonuses
Productive (+1): +15%

Global Events Bonuses
xxxx: +xx%

Colonization Event Bonuses
xxxx: +xx%

Planet Bonuses
xxxx: +xx%

Improvements Bonuses
xxxx: +xx%
xxxx: +xx%
xxxx: +xx%

Starbases Bonuses
xxxx: +xx%
xxxx: +xx%

Etc.

Raw Manufacturing: +11
* Colony Capital: +5
* Population: +3.8
* Approval Bonus: +2.2 (+25%)

And another tooltip in the Govern Planet screen.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I always love tooltips breaking down the numbers

Hidden maths is also a bit of a pet peeve of mine. It's good to now know how Production is calculated from Population.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting joeball123,

reply 10

Quoting Unknown_Hero,

reply 6

This should be clearly explained in the tooltip.

Raw Manufacturing: +11
* Colony Capital: +5
* Population: +3.8
* Approval Bonus: +25%

The approval bonus is a bonus to base production, not to any of the three output types.

I.e. the output equations are:

Production = ((flat production) + 2 *(population)^0.7)*(approval multiplier)

Manufacturing = (manufacturing fraction)*(Production)*(manufacturing multiplier)

Research = (research fraction)*(Production)*(research multiplier)

Money = (money fraction)*(Production)*(money multiplier)

This means that the approval multiplier stacks multiplicatively with the output bonuses rather than additively; since all the bonuses in the tool tips stack additively, including the approval bonus in the tool tip would be deceptive or require a change to the formulas.

It would be better to have a breakdown of production showing the base production and any bonuses given to it somewhere, such as on the Govern Planet screen, if the formulas remain the same, rather than having the approval bonus included in the tool tips listing all the bonuses to each output type when the approval bonus doesn't stack in the same way that all the other bonuses in those tool tips do.

Quoting Wer900,

reply 9

Perhaps total production should be calculated by:

(raw production bonuses + pop^(approval rating)) * (%bonuses)

I think not. 0% approval gives a 25% penalty to base production, which is bad; your formula would more or less remove population from the equation at low levels of approval, which is generally far worse. I could go for pop^F(approval) for some function F that gives a reasonable range of exponents, but not for F(approval) = approval.

Additionally, this formulation hides the effect of approval from the player even more than the current form does (where it's a percentage penalty to the whole thing and simply isn't listed in the tool tip for the output types but can be determined from looking at the influence, population growth, or resistance tool tips). Consider - if the exponent on population is equal to the approval rate expressed as a decimal, what is the difference between 50% approval and 70% approval? How much of a penalty is it? ((base production) + (population)^0.5) / ((base production) + (population)^0.7) is not something that I can do in my head, nor is it something where the effects of approval can be easily quantified. ((base production) + H(population))*F(approval) is a function where the approval effects can easily be quantified, assuming you know what F(approval) is.

For the record, F(approval) is a piecewise linear function defined as follows:

F =

1 + ((approval) - 0.95) + 0.2 if approval > 0.95

1 + ((approval - 0.85)*0.5 + 0.15 if 0.95 >= approval > 0.85

1 + ((approval) - 0.7)*2/3 + 0.05 if 0.85 >= approval > 0.7

1 + ((approval) - 0.3)*0.25 - 0.05 if 0.7 >= approval > 0.3

1 + ((approval) - 0.15)*2/3 - 0.15 if 0.3 >= approval > 0.15

1 + ((approval) - 0.05)*0.5 - 0.2 if 0.15 >= approval > 0.05

1 + (approval) - 0.25 if 0.05 >= approval

A rough approximation of this is G(approval) = 1 + ((approval) - 0.5)^3 + 0.25*((approval) - 0.5).

Fair enough, but even this system is too complicated. Why don't we simply have P = (raw production + population) * sqrt(approval) * (1+%bonuses)? The diminishing returns of higher population would come from the approval factor. This system would make far more sense than what we have now.

Successfully updated karma reason!