Starbases in Foreign Territory: Make it Require Open Borders

Another thing I noticed: starbases that boost the yields of nearby planets are way too weak. Even after 3 upgrades, an economic starbase was only giving +15% (it was not stacking with previous upgrades), and that's not to the total yield, because that might be worth it -- that's just a tiny +15% that gets added to the other percents the planet has, so it's eclipsed by half of a single tier one bank.

Given I had to send like five constructors to that one starbase just to get that 15%, I think I should get more than that for my troubles. First, the previous upgrades should stack, making it +30%. Second, it should boost the total gross output, rather than just modifying the base output. That way, yield-boosting starbases would be well worth the time and money.

even at 15% per starbase you can stack that up to 12 times granted its a lot of work but thats 180% right there on top of that you have 10%X12 production bonus so 120%
and if you were doing a specialized world you could stack the manufacturing bonus

lets put some numbers in

unmodified world that has 10 pts of raw production         - total prod  10
120% production modifier                                         - total prod  22
180% specialization modifier  (research/manu/wealth)     -total prod   39.6  (when using 100% to specialization)

so we can get a 296% bonus to production just from stacking starbases thats not including bonus to morale and trade income.

now comes the fun part if you can get a planets total manufacturing bonus above 300% ( we already have 180 based on 15%X12) you can focus your world to 100% manufacturing and use research/wealth project to essentially double dip those bonus's meaning you would get  ((production X Manufacturing)/ 4 X research or wealth bonus's 

I'm pretty sure you can't build starbases that close to each other, and if that's the entire reason they're so weak in the first place, then get rid of stacking starbase yields so we won't have to. Honestly, though, with that many constructors, which is well over 60, you probably deserve to be overpowered. If this has become the norm, then no wonder I've been hearing a lot of complaints about starbase micro.

a ran some numbers in a seperate thread i think you could potentially put 70+ modules on a single starbase.... not that you need to for every single starbase but it adds up

They should just make it if any ship enters you borders (without an open borders treaty) the AI must declare war similar to how the Civilization games are.

I honestly think the constructor rush is a design decision. The game wants you to choose between rushing colony ships for planets or rushing constructors for resources. You can always go pragmatism ideology and get both (you get 3 free constructors after colonizing like 1 or 2 planets). Either that or play on larger maps?

This was on a huge map! If this really was a design decision, it's a terrible one. It's annoying and counter-intuitive. Laying claim to the neutral resources, sure, that I can understand. Going to war over that is fun, and means something. Definitely one of the parts I enjoy most about conquering a new system. Laying claim to resources already in another person's territory? That's an offense that deserves a declaration of war on its own, and the AI treats it like it's no big deal, regardless of who does it.

This is a problem even into the late game. This isn't about rushing, this is about me being in the middle of a war and need to be producing transports, and I shouldn't need to have a constructor waiting in the wings every time I destroy a Starbase just to make sure my allies don't claim my own resources 3 turns later.

Yeah, but you have a hard limit to how many modules you can build via technology. Maybe 70+ modules on a single starbase is good for modders, or maybe if you wanted to make a starbase impossible to destroy, but it doesn't help me boost a system's income enough to pay for the starbase's maintenance to begin with.

They should just make it if any ship enters you borders (without an open borders treaty) the AI must declare war similar to how the Civilization games are.

 

I totally agree. With this suggestion, it could mitigate the "forced rush" feeling of the game and add a strategic layer.

But i don't see this coming at all. The "borders" seems to have no effect in the game (beside flipping planets). In fact, i'm not even sure the game is coded to interpret the borders this way, so i'm not seeing this change if the players don't ask for vigorously..

Also funny in this respect is the diplomacy screen..

If I send in a constructor to mine a resource in alien space I get a message that the other guy is annoyed with it and demands I pull back my base.

But MY diplomacy options, I don't have the means to object or demand withdrawal??

Besides that, I totally agree with Vidszhite : I also noticed constructors waiting to take over if I destroy an enemy miningbase as if they have them stacked up for this purpose. But building economic bases to improve their worlds? No (seems to me if the AI Does stack up constructors they should be using them for that as well)

I've wondered about this, too.  I've played through a good 6 times on maps Large and higher and have never seen a starbase culture flip. 

If this is supposed to be part of the game mechanics it doesn't seem to be functioning properly. 

What about shipyards -- are they supposed to culture flip?  It seems contradictory to me that you can culture flip an entire system with a shipyard in it that is sponsored by those planets that flipped -- but they keep the shipyard.  I admit I'm not a professional coder so there're probably factors I'm not taking into account.

Not initially, no, but if the bases are strategically placed you can research tech that expands the starbases original boundries by four, allowing it to overlap other starbases and cover much more real estate.

@Seabrook

If they start mining an area that is already in your ZoC, I agree.  If a ship's just passing through, though, well ... space is big.  REALLY big.  Being forced to declare war just because a ship is crossing your ZoC seems excessive and unrealistic, imo.

I was just playing on a Large map and had this issue with literally every resource I sighted bar 1 being taken by the AI's I had a race for a couple but was unable to get my constructor there falling short by a turn each time, its almost as if the AI see you launch and works out which faction can send one to beat you to the punch and there was of course some cheeky sod set up a duel Anti-Matter mining base literally with 15 hexes of my home world, while there home world is only accessible to me via a Wormhole because its that far away, I mean seriously what the hell! 

I also found literally zero habitable planets that were not owned by minor factions within 50 hexes of my home world and sadly those that where further out were far closer to the AI races and thus colonised so I've not been able to get resources and I'm stuck with a paltry two planets and two AI's have just gone to War with me for no reason as so much as I can tell, though that was about 20 turns previous and I've not seen a single aggressive fleet though I'm now going all in to maximise my production of ships myself. I've set up trades with the more wealth minor races for the simple reason that the AI's I'm on best terms with are on the other side of those I'm at war with on neutral with and there's no chance in hell I'm going to risk sending a trade ship though so much enemy territory with the amount of production they cost me.

Anyway what I'm saying as A) I agree with the original poster in terms that a treaty should be required to set up a star base within your borders though B)that should not be the case regarding moving though territory with civilian vessels at least because otherwise you get penned in with no route past them which would suck. C) Where was the memo that Pirates guarding locations are now easily able to destroy your survey ships within a few seconds of an encounter because that was a nasty thing to discover...

Bug in 5.3, fixed in Beta 6.

I don't agree that influential "borders" should stop anyone from using resources inside them. I do however think that colonies and star bases should exert a five radius "border" in which no one cold create a colony or use any resources without declaring war on that faction first.

The "borders" of the map are only the areas where you have cultural influence, there are no real borders in space no more than you can patrol and enforce. There should be diplomatic tension when another faction establish bases inside another factions influential area which can lead to war. All this would be an interesting addition to the diplomatic side of the game if developed in that direction.

When it comes to economical star bases I currently only deploy them in areas where they can cover more than one colony.

To the original topic.  I agree that it should either take Open Border or a Declaration of War to build starbases in another factions area of influence.

The best solution to the problem that's currently available is to try to buy the starbase from them, unless you prefer to take it by force. 

To side topics:

Economic bases are under powered.  If it's suppose to be a decision between expansion or building more vertically with constructors, then they've failed.  Having the % bonuses stack might be a little too much, but the current bonuses aren't worth the production until much later in the game.  Secondly, for Economic Starbases the most I can get effecting a single planet is 8(someone mentioned 12, how is this possible with the spacing req.?)

Buying is a good option but sometimes early on they want a lot for the trade. If it is too much I just buy all the output of that base (assuming it is a mining base, which nearly all of them are)

At least there should be diplomatic options of warning the AI from establishing bases near your territory (within your influential borders).

The borders in the game are not political borders so it is a fine line exactly what you may ask... but I definitely think that building a base near someone else colony should give some sort of casus belli for going to war or getting some sort of diplomatic options to negotiate.

I also think that different AI should react differently depending on circumstances and their traits, both in establishing bases and reacting to other building bases in their territory... especially cultural bases that threaten to have their colonies rebel against them.

It is also a good thing that you can buy bases from the AI, such as mining bases you want. Different AI could react or negotiate differently based on this as well... so a mining station they own inside your influential areas should perhaps be cheaper to negotiate for. But the same should be true if you do the same to the AI... if they want that base and you flat out refuse for a "fair" price they should take offense.

All in all... we have to stop looking at influential border as a political border, but there should be a definitive rule about building bases closer than five tile from another civilizations colony without severe diplomatic repercussions. Or settling planets within a certain distance from other civilizations stations or colonies and I think five tiles is a good distance for this, it practically is a solar system.

This is a problem even into the late game. This isn't about rushing, this is about me being in the middle of a war and need to be producing transports, and I shouldn't need to have a constructor waiting in the wings every time I destroy a Starbase just to make sure my allies don't claim my own resources 3 turns later.

Actually, I often criticized GC2 for not doing this. Glad to see the AI is smarter this time around *applause*

Yeah I was a victim of this today for the first time which was a rude awakening normally the survey vessel kicks pirate ass I lost mine within first 10-20 turns.game crashed before I could unlock the techs for building another one.

The problem with forcing Open Bordere or Declare War is you are taking a prime strategy away from players who pursue Influence Victories.  Culture Flipping planets via Influence Starbases is a tried and true method to victory.  Now, yes, the AI should take the fact that you are trying to McDonalds them to death into account on how it views you.  But, well, it wasn't an instant DoW in GC II, and I see no reason why it should be in GC III.

In my opinion the AI should regard it as offensive as a player would when someone tries to overtake you with influence and try everything to stop it, including going to war if nothing else works.

And why don't you have a constructor ready when you blow up the enemy one? 

This is a strategy game afterall. Securing and fighting for resources is a major part of the gameplay. If there are fixed borders that prevent players from building starbases or even go into foreign space, than you take away a major part of the game.

And remember: If they can do it, so can you. If the AI can't build starbases in your zone of influence, you are not allowed to build any starbases outside of your zone of influence. Do you want that?

I agree. I very much dislike the minor race rush for starbases, the building of starbases in your borders, and the ai not being ok with the player doing the same. In general the way borders work between races is very poor. Nobody pays attention to them.

I don't have issue with the AI securing resources around the map, its just a difference resources strategy.

I do agree with the idea that a colonized planet should exert some kind of "get off my lawn border" for starbases, as then those enemy bases don't just take resources, they prevent economic/cultural bases of my own.

I don't get a lot of the arguments against the Open Borders or Declare War options.

First, Influence starbases have to boost one of your own planets, so no I don't care that I can't put these directly in their territory. Granted, Influence bases should probably be changed, but in current form putting them in someones territory is a worthless option.

Second, the AIs diplomacy is just too bad.  If they take a resource starbase while I'm fighting a war to extend my ZOC, in my newly created ZOC, then I'm going to rightfully burn that base to the ground. And the computer should respect that, and not hold a grudge against me for their own inane aggressive action.  Unfortunately, that's not how that scenario goes.

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Good points are that you probably should carry some Constructors within your war fleets to immediately cap resources.  That's on the player.

I realize it is a different universe literally and figuratively, but think about Star Trek. What would happen if the Romulans started building starbases within Federation space? As well as mining resources? Particularly for both starbase types, deep in Federation space. Or switch the 'aggressor.' The Feds and the Roms would react different, but still along the lines of taking over those bases, blowing them up, war, etc. Or the real world friction between Russia and the US and the missle defense system the US is trying to fully set up. Its not currently leading to war, but there is a proxy of a sort going on in the Ukraine. If the Russian government were mining precious resources in the US, well it wouldn't even happen. I realize Russia and US are land based, but the point still remains. It would not be tolerated.