Influence is too drastic

from GalCiv3 Forums

I don't know how many other people feel this way, as map size could potentially change an opinion on this...

 

But influence yields too much power. It takes far less effort to conquer using influence, and if you put resources into it early enough you can establish dominance early on.

For example, on a tiny map I was able to win solely using moderate-high levels of influence within 56 turns against a custom faction with moderate gearing for influence. Even in larger games I notice that influence is more important than warfare for territory control, and that conquest is near pointless as (i) If you conquer a planet that isn't in your influence, it flips back quite readily. (ii) To retain the planet after conquering it you must extend your influence to retain it so therefore you might as well just conquer by influence which currently is easy.

I'm not sure why this is out of whack, I simply feel influence is playing far too large a role. Perhaps if a planet is conquered, it should exert out a burst of your influence to at least culturally separate it (temporarily or otherwise) from the faction you are against. Maybe its just my play-style but it seems like 1 culture center per 2 planets is enough to overwhelm the AI, and the rate which culture presses borders is horrifying quick.

Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?

5,547 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

There was some sort of bug that was making influence calculations wrong.  From the 5.2 patch notes: "Fixed an issue where influence would be incorrectly calculated"

I also noticed that there are some diplomatic penalties planed for taking over/threatening planets with culture.  I think they just haven't been fully implemented yet. 

Hopefully the combination will make things more balanced.

 

-<DiplomaticModifier>

<UniqueID>CloseToInfluenceFlip</UniqueID>

<RelationEffect>-2</RelationEffect>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Expansionist</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>1.5</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Spiritual</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>1.5</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Xenophobic</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>2</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>

<Description>CloseToInfluenceFlip_Dec</Description>

</DiplomaticModifier>

----------------------------------------------------

-<DiplomaticModifier>

<UniqueID>SuccessfulInfluenceFlip</UniqueID>

<RelationEffect>-3</RelationEffect>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Aggressive</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>1.5</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Expansionist</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>1.5</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Spiritual</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>1.5</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>


-<AIPersonalityModifier>

<PersonalityTrait>Xenophobic</PersonalityTrait>

<WeightModifier>2</WeightModifier>

</AIPersonalityModifier>

<Query>false</Query>

<Duration>75</Duration>

<Description>SuccessfulInfluenceFlip_Dec</Description>

</DiplomaticModifier>

Reply #2 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Well, I have been playing on the big maps and influence seems to be balanced pretty well I have not had any of the problems you describe.

The game length you mentioned doesn't sound so bad for a tiny map. Man that map is really tiny, and also, in my experience the custom races I have put together don't seem to hold up as well as game default races. It would seem that 50-60 turns might be a game on that map.

Nevertheless, the problem of invading a planet and it flipping back in X moves is just wrong and a bug imo. Once a planet has been conquered it's flipping days should be over. That would not be hard to code into the game I would think.

It would seem that your influence should follow your path of conquest. In fact one of the complaints I have seen is that when invasion into another factions ZOC begins, the influence follows so fast it starts flipping planets to the invader before the player has the joy of sending in the troops. Personally I think it is a plot by anti-war liberals on the Stardock staff to stop all the death and destruction caused by the transports. BTW, flipped planets count as a conquest victory if the influence victory is turned off

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

It seems regardless of map, a minimum waiting period needs to be added after a planets has flipped before it can re-flip.  I'd recommend 20 turns.  Enough time for most wars to be carried out.

As to the influence gains effecting gameplay, it is largely a map setting issue.  Small maps will have influence lines jammed together, where on large maps it takes a long time before borders will ever touch.

-----

AI Discussion

Secondly, the AI isn't really properly combating influence attacks, which leads to some cheesy strategies. Coding the AI to deal with Influence seems easy, but coding it to deal with it efficiently seems a bit harder. 

Human players invest heavily on their border colonies, and also realize that if two colonies are very close to one another, then only 1 of them really needs to be an influence beacon.  So if the computer where to make all planets invest in Influence upgrades, it'd be a very inefficient system, but would prevent the cheesy strats.  Hopefully, it can be coded to take into account the range of closest opposing faction colonies, and also whether an influence beacon within your own faction is already overlapping(protecting) the colony.

Possible coding:

Colony checks for other faction colonies within a range(maybe around 10ish), and checks if they've queued Influence buildings yet. Check =Yes, then no Influence buildings queued.  Check = No, then initial Influence building queued.

Colony checks every 10 turns if opposing faction colony is within a range(around 30ish), and checks influence value of that opposing colony. Check returns influence value, then colony queues influence building.  Colony will continue to queue influence buildings until opposing colony has no more than 1.3x the influence of colony.

Values could change with testing. Also, Planets of smaller class sizes should have hard cut-offs. Such as Class 5 or smaller, max 1 Influence building limit. Class 8 or smaller, max 2. etc. Prevents matching nearby Influence from taking over the economy of small planets within the AI.

Reply #4 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

I like influence being powerful, I'm sure the AI will get some love to deal with it.

 

However, I do think each planet that culture flips should cause a large diplomatic penalty with that race, and then also increase your perceived threat level significantly to ALL races.

The influence-er should eventually be forced into wars over this, the Drengin would not stand idly by whilst their slaves overrun their worlds to join your empire.

 

 

Reply #5 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Quoting Spark026, reply 3

Secondly, the AI isn't really properly combating influence attacks, which leads to some cheesy strategies. Coding the AI to deal with Influence seems easy, but coding it to deal with it efficiently seems a bit harder. 
End of Spark026's quote

I see this all the time and I wonder how/why it is an issue in a single player game. I don't use cheesy strategy. I build a modest amount of influence improvements to take care of my side and basically that is all until late game. If I decide to go for an influence V late I might do some culture bombing but not untill I have basically won the game and just don't feel like cleaning up all the hanging on factions. I have been playing large maps and I can tell you that I am not overwhelming the AI with Influence and they aren't overwhelming me. Like I told the OP 50-60 turns sounds about right to win a tiny map game. Those maps are teeninsy.

There are dozens of ways to cheese the AI and no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to do it. If it isn't culture, it's tech brokering and as soon as one door closes another one opens

So, in single player I don't cheese and I don't care if someone else does. There are people that use cheat codes. Should I worry about them?

Now the issue of conquered planets flipping right back is hard for me to understand and if it is happening it is wrong and different than the human player cheesing. If that is happening it should be fixed.

There will be a lot of balancing going on before release and I suspect influence will tighten down some but meanwhile if you don't care for influence victories turn off the IV and don't build I buildings. If you like I victory but find it too easy, try larger maps and try to own 75% of an insane map

Reply #6 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

Ive been playing on the third largest map (Immense?) with tight clusters and routinely see influence lines 60+ tiles away from the generating planet between 100-150 turns 

i personally thought it was a little overpowered when i had to make two planets focused on influence to keep the ais borders away when i cant even. Reach thier planets wih any of my ships

Reply #7 from GalCiv3 Forums Top
Quoting Franco, reply 5

I see this all the time and I wonder how/why it is an issue in a single player game. I don't use cheesy strategy. I build a modest amount of influence improvements to take care of my side and basically that is all until late game. 

End of Franco's quote

I generally agree with you that cheesy strats, like the diplomatic options that can currently be done are of little concern and can be avoided.  I play on Immense maps, and avoid using these techniques, but the current influence system and the AI's lack of response to it is a problem.

Mainly because factions like Krynn have an intended play-style geared toward it, and it's also a completely valid win condition for the player on any race. 

Basically, if a valid/intended win condition has turned into something that feels morally dubious in nature, then we have a problem.

And I'm pretty sure they said they are addressing Influence AI again at some point.

Reply #9 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

I think strong influence should prevent your borders from shrinking, but needs a serious border growth nerf.

 

Reply #10 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

The most detailed information I know of on the influence mechanic suggests that zones of influence are determined by a function f of the total accumulated influence at your colonies, where f is something like max(h(inf1, rng1), ..., h(infN, rngN)), with (infX, rngX) being the influence of and range to colony X. If f exceeds a certain threshold and isn't exceeded by the influence of another culture, then the tile is yours.

Sounds alright, so what's the problem? Well, my understanding is that infX is unbounded and strictly increasing. Perhaps it's time that a decay term of some type was added - maybe a percentage term (something like currentInfluence = 0.9*lastTurnInfluence + influenceGrowth), perhaps an area-dependent term (e.g. currentInfluence = lastTurnInfluence + influenceGrowth - infLossPerTile*tilesInfluenced), perhaps something else. Without a decay term, influence borders constantly expand and influence grows to ludicrous levels given enough time. With a decay term, influence levels and influence borders eventually stabilize at a point determined by the influence growth rate and the chosen decay term.

Even if they do nothing else, a period of immunity to cultural influence would be nice each time a colony changes hands (including the time when the world is colonized). A rework of cultural influence so that it's an approval penalty rather than an allegiance flip (at least until the colony is unhappy enough for a long enough period of time to suffer rebellions) when the "wrong" culture is too predominant in the area would also seem reasonable. If I can keep a colony happy (or hold it strongly enough to put down rebellions), then there's no good reason for that colony to change hands unless I give it up on the negotiating table or it's successfully invaded.

(It should be noted that my understanding of the influence mechanic comes from Gilmoy's v0.42 cultural influence mechanics post; the mechanics may have changed at least somewhat since then.)

 

As a side note, I rather strongly dislike influence in Galactic Civilizations. Yes, I'm sure that random rock that no one bothered colonizing is so steeped in your civilization's culture that my colonists are so overawed by it that they can't bear to not be part of your great and wonderful civilization, or that those colonists who just got off the colony ship and founded a completely new colony on a never-before-settled world will be so impressed by your blue jeans and rock music and pizza that they'll defect from my empire to yours within a few weeks. Am I just settling these worlds with dissidents, malcontents, and anyone who wants to immigrate to the planet? Don't I have some kind of immigrations office, or some kind of vetting process for the colonists to ensure that the colony is at least probably going to remain loyal long enough to pay back the cost of the expedition?

Reply #11 from GalCiv3 Forums Top

I agree that a new colony being settled should have a influence immunity for so many turns. I think a conquered planet should be able to rebel not flip untill after a war. I wouldn't want.to see.more influence than dark avatar. You could scale influence by size of map. I think the krynn in dark avatar had a good influence stradegy. Maybe that could be a template for how the ai use influence. The krynn didn't keep this up after dark avatar. I always thought that civilization,  freecIv,  snd alpha centauri handled culture better than galactic civilizations handled influence.  I always thought call to power handled public works better than galactic civilizations handled influence.