ccgerm

Join Date 03/2010

Untying ideology from colonization

Ideology should be about choices and narrative, not speed of empire expansion

I think that ideology points are currently tied too much to one aspect of the game and that they incentivize that aspect of the game too much. I think they should depend less on how big an empire is or how fast it is expanding. Most points should come from moral choices based on domestic policies that do not depend on empire size or expansion. Ideology should be about choices and about narrative, not about expanding ones empire or mechanistically acquiring points.

Right now, ideology points are largely rewarded from colonizing planets. Almost every colonization seems to bring up a moral choice. That’s not necessarily a problem, except that this seems to form the majority of the opportunities to get ideology points. People are already going to colonize those planets – pretty much the point of the game is to expand your empire. But there needs to be more balance to how to accrue points.

I am going to guess that the goal of these points is to encourage a kind of role-playing in the minds of players. It encourages you to create a narrative of what your civilisation is actually like. Maybe you are cartoonishly evil in your own mind, or some sort of super-libertarian pacifist collective (or anything else). The game doesn’t give you much direct feedback on this, but I suspect a lot of us imagine it in our heads anyway. We imagine what it would be like to live in (or rule) a particular flavour of society. Based on his blog posts, I know Brad does. This is good and gives people an attachment to their empire.

But colonization/expansion (and foreign policy) is only one aspect of how a government or society works. You could argue that the US has an iffy track record (at best) in how it has acquired territory, yet most people would probably claim that it is mostly good. The character of a nation shows not just in how it expands but mostly by how it acts within itself and how it thinks about itself.

I think that the majority of ideology points should come from domestic events and not be tied to how large an empire is or how rapidly it’s expanding. Whether a society is good or evil (or pragmatic) doesn’t depend on how big it is. I think this would tend to balance smaller and larger empires (and maps) a bit better.

I also think that building “Temples of Good/Evil/Neutralness” to acquire points takes away from the roleplay aspect of the mechanic. It just seems like a way to optimize arbitrarily without presenting any moral choices or fleshing out ones galactic society. If we still wanted the economy to produce ideology points, perhaps projects could be a bit less generic and had a bit more story to them or added things to the game? For example, perhaps a good society could “uplift” a primitive species to the status of a minor race, adding them to the game after a lot of effort. This could lead to some choices about how to treat these new neighbours and would change the landscape of the game more than just adding a building that pumps out points.

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The only 'true' strategy is to take that early then spam it on all colonies. You can then sell it afterwards if you don't need it.

I do like that ideology points come from colonization though. But yes, more domestic choices (and galactic) would fit it better. It effectively means deep ideology is only for larger maps at the moment.

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admiralWillyWilber

Join Date 05/2009

+99

I don't care either way, but you do things in a game fight, expand, survey, build freighters, invade planets, build ships, treaties, research, galactic council, scout, espionage, steal techs, savatoge, influence, planet flip. Do you tradebor conquer small races do you sharevtrafe goods. You can extort diplomacy you build morale farming economic defence influence do you aid people at war making and honering alliances all kind of things you could get points for.

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erischild

Join Date 01/2012

+136

Quoting SBFMadDjinn,

reply 1

I agree on the point wrt the 'bonus point' ideology buildings. I'm fine with the +X/turn as long as they come later in the ideology trees than they do right now. What I dislike, and is tied to colonization, is the buildings in the ideology tree that give a flat +X for building it.

The only 'true' strategy is to take that early then spam it on all colonies. You can then sell it afterwards if you don't need it.

But you can't sell those buildings. They become a permanent commitment of a tile.

I do agree with more sources of Ideology. Devs have mentioned that in the past and agreed to the need, but it hasn't happened yet. They didn't give any clues as to what it would be.

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Blaze of Glory

Join Date 04/2006

+27

I feel they are a bit ham handed at the moment. There are benefits in each tree that are appealing. It should take a scale of how many in each tree I have instead of I have 3 benevolent and 4 pragmatic, ergo I am pragmatic. ??? I also don't like benevolent and pragmatic relations is the same as benevolent and malevolent relations. It should be bonus for the same, nothing for pragmatic and perhaps a penalty to all factions for evil. I mean, even China doesn't like North Korea that much.

Instead of role playing, I feel constrained by colonization choices. I really want to choose B but if I do, then it will flip me from benevolent to pragmatic and upset my neighbors...

Also, I have no idea what tiles are on the planet when I make the choice. I could really be missing out by not choosing one that increases science because it has a science bonus tile on the planet that would be boosted by my choice.

Just call it was it is

Good Neutral Evil

Then have a bar. Your position on the bar is the ratio of good or evil choices (Whichever you have more of) divided by the total choices made. If they are the same number, you are in the middle.

You are neutral until you go 1/2 way left or right on the bar (or some ratio)

Something like that makes more sense to me anyway. Relations can be based on how for apart they are on the bar/ratio

Just my two cents.

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Quoting Blaze of Glory,

reply 4

I also don't like benevolent and pragmatic relations is the same as benevolent and malevolent relations.

I agree, imo one step away should be neutral. That way only good and evil would dislike each other for ideology. It would fit with the diplomacy bonuses given by the neutral tree.

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admiralWillyWilber

Join Date 05/2009

+99

Maybe they could do it both ways. I like the colonization choices. As long as it is fair to pick either chpice without being nerfed. Maybe its me, but it doesn't make sense to allow player to pick sny choice while gaining pointsbin all three is a cheese I would take advantage ofnjust because its there. Here's a better solution add all the points together. Average the choices together to find out what tree your in. If equal number of good and evil on the maximum value then neutral. If equal good and neutral then good. If equal number evil snd neutral thrn evil. If equal all three then neutral. Otherwise whoever is the highest. To make this work in all three tree's at least triple the value of.points. the techs shpuld be alluring where you want all three anyways. Nonthing wrong resetting the game to try to play a different idealogy anyways. Hears an idea play multiple games at once. Otherwise it is cheesy.

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Taslios

Join Date 11/2002

+74

I have my suspicions that the Ideology is only tied to the Colonization event for the purposes of testing in the Beta and it will be untied completely once the game goes live.

That said, I would rather they tied it to how you did things in game. Have a major event like the galactic plague... if you SELL the cure, you get Pragmatic points for each trade you make... if you Give it you get Bene, If another race contacts you and begs for it and you make a huge profit or force concessions from them you get "evil"

Invading a minor race... when you invade a minor race they should give you the option of integrating (Bene) Placing on "reservations" Prag... or enslave/slaughter the remaining population (actually this should be done on EVERY invasion.

We should have a lot of micro events that are random and happen every turn, rather than a bunch of colonization events at the very least.

But again. I fully suspect that Ideology is only tied to Colonization for testing so that they know how powerful/balanced/broken/weak the various Ideology traits are.

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DARCA1213

Join Date 01/2014

+106

Wonder if I can mod it so the events have a chance of it happening when a ships being built. That would help small map empires but when would they stop happening?

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I have to agree I don't like the ideology system as currently implemented.

1. Some choices are insanely OP.

2. Its tied way to close to colonization.

3. I cant remember, will edit this later

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

I like what we have now but would also like ideology to better interwoven with other aspects of the game as the OP suggests.

1) Different invasion methods could effect Ideology (Core implosion lol, that is malevolent)

2) Certain researches/techs could provide tools but also affect your ideology.

3) When colonizing, provide 5 choices instead of 3, don't make them QUITE as obvious, and two of those choices give you a mix of two ideologies.

4) Certain proposals if voted FOR or AGAINST in UP should award ideology.

5) I'm not certain how, but culture, culture flipping, and certain aspects of diplomacy could also be affected.

6) When you meet a Minor Race, we should also get moral questions, just like when we colonize.

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