Another Vote for too much Micro (Solution: prod/research overflow!)

A planet with 15 production will take 2 turns to build a factory. Great. All else being equal, it'll take 4 turns for 2 factories. Cool.

 

A planet with 29 production will take 2 turns to build a factory. Great. All else being equal, it'll take 4 turns for 2 factories. What??

 

This means if you want to actually make good use of your extra production, it absolutely necessitates micro management of almost every planet, almost every turn. I want that extra 14 production to do something, so I allocate it to shipyards/research/wealth... manually, via pixel-click hell.

 

Please, put that extra production to use in building the next thing. Same goes for research.

30,811 views 29 replies
Reply #1 Top

Last I heard, production overflow for one thing is supposed to be in.  That it isn't is a bug that will be addressed eventually.

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Reply #2 Top

Thank you! Can barely wait :) single-item overflow is completely reasonable as only one item may be built at a time.

Further to that point, if I have 14 production and I buy/rush a factory turn 1 while queueing up another factory, does that mean the 2nd one will complete end of turn 2? (14 + 14*1.25 = 31.5)

 

Do you know if overflow will also be used for research, and be similarly bound to one--per-turn?

Reply #3 Top

Quoting BuckGodot, reply 1

Last I heard, production overflow for one thing is supposed to be in.  That it isn't is a bug that will be addressed eventually.
End of BuckGodot's quote

 

Stardock are asked about this just about every week in their streams and there's been multiple threads on this topic since the Beta's started and probably before that.  I don't feel Stardock are listening on this topic, certainly not the devs who are able to fix it at least.  If it is on the bug list to be fixed (I'm skeptical of this at this point) it should be as high a priority as many of the new features being implemented since it is currently so detrimental to the quality of the gameplay imo.  The amount of times this topic comes up would certainly suggest that.

This is a commercially released Beta, certain bugs should be a higher fix priority than in a closed Beta.  The game has too much micromanagement due to this issue and I no longer find it fun to play, it's not the game yet that I thought it would be when I bought it.  There was production overflow in Gal Civ 2 and has been in just about every good 4X game in the last decade or more, I really hope this isn't an awful design decision and it will be fixed by Beta 5.

 

As of 27th Feb Stardocks last stream of their current build this was not fixed.  You can see it clearly at the 44 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtaSM2xih8&ab_channel=StardockGames

Reply #4 Top

Quoting MacsenLP, reply 3


Quoting BuckGodot,

Last I heard, production overflow for one thing is supposed to be in.  That it isn't is a bug that will be addressed eventually.



 

Stardock are asked about this just about every week in their streams and there's been multiple threads on this topic since the Beta's started and probably before that.  I don't feel Stardock are listening on this topic, certainly not the devs who are able to fix it at least.  If it is on the bug list to be fixed (I'm skeptical of this at this point) it should be as high a priority as many of the new features being implemented since it is currently so detrimental to the quality of the gameplay imo.  The amount of times this topic comes up would certainly suggest that.

This is a commercially released Beta, certain bugs should be a higher fix priority than in a closed Beta.  The game has too much micromanagement due to this issue and I no longer find it fun to play, it's not the game yet that I thought it would be when I bought it.  There was production overflow in Gal Civ 2 and has been in just about every good 4X game in the last decade or more, I really hope this isn't an awful design decision and it will be fixed by Beta 5.

 

As of 27th Feb Stardocks last stream of their current build this was not fixed.  You can see it clearly at the 44 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOtaSM2xih8&ab_channel=StardockGames

End of MacsenLP's quote

 

Part of the problem is that there are two SEPARATE complaints.  There is a group that wants to be able to build three, four, or ten things at once if they have the production to cover it.  And there is another group that simply wants to be able to carry over production to the next turn to help build one more item.  The devs have said the second is what they'd like while the former is not what they want for game balance reasons.

However when this comes up under the banner of "production overflow", the two separate concepts can get mangled and messed up.  And lead to lots and lots of arguments. :p

Still, until I hear differently from the devs, I will believe that the "help build/research one more thing next turn" type of production overflow will be in sooner or later. :)

Reply #5 Top

Quoting BuckGodot, reply 4

Part of the problem is that there are two SEPARATE complaints.  There is a group that wants to be able to build three, four, or ten things at once if they have the production to cover it.  And there is another group that simply wants to be able to carry over production to the next turn to help build one more item.  The devs have said the second is what they'd like while the former is not what they want for game balance reasons.

However when this comes up under the banner of "production overflow", the two separate concepts can get mangled and messed up.  And lead to lots and lots of arguments.

Still, until I hear differently from the devs, I will believe that the "help build/research one more thing next turn" type of production overflow will be in sooner or later.
End of BuckGodot's quote

 

I'd definitely agree these overflow production threads can get off topic for whatever reason.  The second is what I'm asking for.  I'm not as optimistic as you that the devs will get around to it sooner or later.  Someone mentioned in another of these threads that Fallen Enchantress doesn't have production overflow (I've not played it so wouldn't know) With Gal Civ 3 being two or so months away from release the lack of progress on this issue and lack of response from the devs I think there's reason to worry.  I don't count the half responses in the streams since Paul is always so distracted (it's hard to play and commentate I do YT videos so I know) and to my knowledge there's been no response on the forums by a person actually coding the game on this issue.

Reply #6 Top

As I stated in my prior post on the topic, I will not be playing or offering feedback during the beta until production overflow, as described in the OP, is added. That's how annoying it is.

https://forums.galciv3.com/460693/page/2/#3523448

Reply #7 Top

Honestly any limitation or loss on overflow is increasing micro management 

Reply #8 Top

Quoting jhanglyn, reply 7

Honestly any limitation or loss on overflow is increasing micro management 
End of jhanglyn's quote

Maybe so.  But there are legitimate game balance concerns at play, esp when it comes to multiplayer.

Thing is, there has NEVER been the "full" overflow when it comes to production in any GC game as far as I am aware.  In fact, as far as I am aware it's not that common in 4x TBS games.  One turn overflow?  Sure.  And GC has let you be able to research multiple techs in a row before.  But full on "I get to crank out 20 ships this turn from one place because I am just that good?"  Not as far as I know.

Also near as I can tell this is something the devs  have considered quite a bit and have decided that they don't want it in their game.  Not much to be done there, I'm afraid. :)

Now things like converting excess production to credits (as you suggested in another post), they might be amenable to.  And if enough people suggest it, they might consider it more strongly.  But "full" overflow just ain't happening, I'm afraid. :)

 

Reply #9 Top

Of course, the alternative is to not worry about the "waste" and get on with crushing your enemies.  :p

I mean, sure, I suppose it can wrankle that you aren't getting the production one is "supposed" to.  But it only leads to micromanagement if one constantly fiddles with the wheel on each and every planet.  One could just shrug one's shoulders and just chalk it up to contractor waste, you know. :p

And let's not forget, in GC II one COULDN'T set each and every planet with its own separate production percentage.  It used to be a universal setting, where all one could do was set a "focus".  If anything, you should be thanking them that they are giving you the option to micromanage each and every planet, as they most certainly didn't before. ;) :D

=================

I kid, of course, but to make a point.  One only micromanages if one really wants to.  It's just as easy to set the global slider and forget about it (with perhaps setting a couple of really special planets here and there).  Sure, it's not the most efficient use of resources.  By far.  But that's where the trade off of time spent vs micromanaging comes in. :)  And that is a very legitimate consideration, IMO, when it comes to game desgin.

Sure, full production overflow (or even one turn) would be nice.  And as I said, the convert to credit idea is a good one and one that I hope is seriously considered.  But if "all" we get is one turn overflow, it's hardly the end of the world, as far as I am concerned.  The trick is to just to decide not to be bothered by it. :)

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Reply #10 Top

Yes, I agree with Buck. When you can build production to a point that you can build any ship in one turn, research  any tech in one turn and earn thousands of credits each turn, what is the point of worrying that excess production is wasted.

I may have to micro-manage all the damnable constructor required to get to that level but I have never micro-managed the sliders. I adjust the main slider 4-5 time in a game and seldom ever adjust a planet slider.

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Reply #11 Top

Quoting Franco, reply 10

Yes, I agree with Buck. When you can build production to a point that you can build any ship in one turn, research  any tech in one turn and earn thousands of credits each turn, what is the point of worrying that excess production is wasted.
End of Franco's quote

 

That happens only in the late game, I hope irl for your sake your not so cavalier with your resources you may need an accountant to manage your finances if so :)

Adding one item production overflow would probably benefit the global slider only crowd the most (not that many of them might realize it) using the global settings only causes the most production lost to waste currently.

I know Buck is trying to play devils advocate but I'm not sure it's helpful we want this fixed don't we?  I'd rather play a game that's not fundamentally flawed personally, I doubt this is something a mod could fix so it's important we make sure the devs know how important this issue is before they release the game.  A 4X game without production overflow is like a car without wheels as far as I'm concerned and Gal Civ 3 ain't no hover car either. 

Reply #12 Top

Quoting MacsenLP, reply 11
 A 4X game without production overflow is like a car without wheels as far as I'm concerned and Gal Civ 3 ain't no hover car either. 

End of MacsenLP's quote
I'm quite serious when I ask this.  How many Turn Based 4X games have full production overflow like some are asking for (and not the one turn one that is supposed to be going in).  I am almost certain that the granddady of them all, Civilization, doesn't let one build multiple things per turn.  Real Time 4X games?  Sure.  But TB ones?  Again, how many let one do that?   I ask because I'm not famailiar with them all (being more of a RPG gamer).  But, again, I am fairly certain that the Civ series doesn't let one do what is being asked of here.  And if they can "get away" with it.... ;)

Reply #13 Top

Quoting BuckGodot, reply 12

I'm quite serious when I ask this.  How many Turn Based 4X games have full production overflow like some are asking for (and not the one turn one that is supposed to be going in).  I am almost certain that the granddady of them all, Civilixation, doesn't let one build multiple things per turn.  Real Time 4X games?  Sure.  But TB ones?  Again, how many let one do that?   I ask because I'm not famailiar with them all (being more of a RPG gamer).  But, again, I am fairly certain that the Civ series doesn't let one do what is being asked of here.  And if they can "get away" with it....
End of BuckGodot's quote

 

Not many I think, e.g. Endless Legend and Endless Space do for buildings not sure for units/ships can't recall at the moment have to check.  As you mention Firaxis has always been one building/unit with production overflow.  I understand why Gal Civ 3 might only be 1unit like the Civ series.  Ships are so cheap you could make thousands and make the game crash due to too much memory use (along those lines I'm no expert on this)  

Don't see why they couldn't do it with buildings though, the lack of options for splitting production in Gal Civ 3 also causes micromanagement issues the pixel circle monstrosity is not enough on its own but I'm getting a bit off topic, I'd be happy just with 1ship/1building overflow for Beta 5.

EDIT:  Just checked Endless Space you can build multiple ships from 1 system* (*equivalent of planet/city in other games) per turn in that game very sure the same is true for units in Endless Legend. 

Reply #14 Top

Quoting MacsenLP, reply 11

That happens only in the late game, I hope irl for your sake your not so cavalier with your resources you may need an accountant to manage your finances if so
End of MacsenLP's quote

LOL, that's a good one. :)

Fact is, with personal resources, I struggle to make 8-10% and I am forced to worry that others wetting their beak will spoil my modest expectations. If I could ever get on a GCIII financial roll, I probably could be a little bit cavalier if there were real life economic relics that would boost the production of my investments by 4-500%. At least until I got used to the good fortune and began to get greedy :)

I understand where you are coming from and I suspect there will be some concessions on this but it seems they are adamant that there will not be production exceeding 1 per turn. It's like the people who ask incessantly for tactical combat when it is clear that it is no going to happen. There were changes made to GCII after release that bothered me but I still enjoyed the game so instead of getting pissed off and uninstalling I tried to be philosophical about it.

 

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Franco, reply 14

I understand where you are coming from and I suspect there will be some concessions on this but it seems they are adamant that there will not be production exceeding 1 per turn. It's like the people who ask incessantly for tactical combat when it is clear that it is no going to happen. 
End of Franco's quote

 

The tactical combat analogy isn't quite the same, production overflow was in Gal Civ 2 tactical combat wasn't.  Gal Civ 3 has basically been touted as Gal Civ 2.5 I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect production overflow in the game, especially since the game is a micromanagement hell without it.  Anyway for the people wanting a definitive reply on when/if production overflow of whatever sort will be in the game are just going to have to keep on waiting doesn't look like Stardock are that interested/able to clear things up for whatever reason.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting MacsenLP, reply 11


Quoting Franco fx,
 I'd rather play a game that's not fundamentally flawed personally,
End of MacsenLP's quote

 

I think it is indeed your own personal opinion.  I am expecting one per turn overflow.  Personally, I don't find that fundamentally flawed.  I hope that is okay and that I am not being cavalier.  You seem to have some disdain for those with this differing set of opinions.  At some point, it is no longer worth it to me to micromanage every last point when I am well ahead of the game in all categories.  That is not fun for me.  It sounds like it is not fun for you and yet you still do it.  That is the part that really confuses me. 

I expect better and better empire management tools as we go along.  I expect the economy setting will change enough to change this conversation substantially.  The possibility of creating an over-the-top empire will always be there.  The designers are looking for ways for the player to break the game, actually, but they will be working to make it more and more challenging.

But as to the assumption that full production overflow is the only one true answer to 4X game economies, I have to disagree.  Cash refunds for social overflow sounds like a good compromise. 

Reply #17 Top

Quoting erischild, reply 16

I think it is indeed your own personal opinion.  I am expecting one per turn overflow.  Personally, I don't find that fundamentally flawed.  I hope that is okay and that I am not being cavalier.  You seem to have some disdain for those with this differing set of opinions.
End of erischild's quote

I've tried to express my opinions in a forceful manner not meaning to cause offense but to show my frustration and get my points across in the hope it might make Stardock realize there's at least some of their customers who feel very strongly on this and that they shouldn't release the game in this state (preferably Beta 5 too).  If that's not working maybe I'll have to change my tact or just give up.  Ultimately you seem to want a better solution to how the game currently handles production overflow so we can both agree on that.  That the game is currently fundamentally or otherwise flawed because it forces competent players to excessive amounts of micromanagement is indeed my opinion, I've no idea if other people share it.

Quoting erischild, reply 16

At some point, it is no longer worth it to me to micromanage every last point when I am well ahead of the game in all categories.  That is not fun for me.
End of erischild's quote

I feel the same way. On how much ahead we may differ.

Quoting erischild, reply 16

It sounds like it is not fun for you and yet you still do it.  That is the part that really confuses me.

End of erischild's quote

Unless you've seen me play the game "yet you still do it", I don't see how you can come to that conclusion...  When I'm really not finding a game fun I stop playing it, haven't played Gal Civ 3 for quite a while because of this issue.

Quoting erischild, reply 16

But as to the assumption that full production overflow is the only one true answer to 4X game economies, I have to disagree
End of erischild's quote

I don't believe I've ever said it is, I think certain solutions are better than others.  The cash refund system for example would be a lot better than nothing, though not the best solution imo.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting MacsenLP, reply 15

The tactical combat analogy isn't quite the same, production overflow was in Gal Civ 2 tactical combat wasn't. [...]
End of MacsenLP's quote

 

There is no "production" overflow in GC2, research could overflow, exept when you get to the end of a Tree.

for Manufacturing we did get the bc, spent on Manufacturing not used, back.

In GC3 this cant work because Manufacturing doesnt cost anything.

 

Reply #19 Top

Quoting mortili, reply 18

There is no "production" overflow in GC2, research could overflow, exept when you get to the end of a Tree.
End of mortili's quote

Actually the RP of most (if not all) end-techs would overflow into a new branch as well (unless you choose to reload the autosave).

And you're right, military and social production would only be refunded in cost, but no overflow in production did happen whatsoever. Considering that production is around 10 to 15 times stronger in worth this kind of refund isn't a big deal, so optimally you'd want to adjust planetary production via focus (or alternate shipdesigns to match MP) as well. Which creates the same micro going through all planets every turn, checking and adjusting.

Quoting BuckGodot, reply 12

How many Turn Based 4X games have full production overflow like some are asking for (and not the one turn one that is supposed to be going in)
End of BuckGodot's quote

FreeOrion comes to mind (heavily based on MoO2). There the problem with this approach surfaces quickly, on the defensive the AI tends to build+release dozens of empty hulls to guard its planets from invasion (the hulls soak up enemy firepower giving the planetary defense more time)

Reply #20 Top

Quoting mortili, reply 18

There is no "production" overflow in GC2, research could overflow, exept when you get to the end of a Tree.

for Manufacturing we did get the bc, spent on Manufacturing not used, back.
End of mortili's quote

 

Looks like I've been remembering incorrectly (so used to other games since probably) should have checked my facts, apologies.  That was a fully working system they had going there though, no real waste whatsoever I believe since it was based on money.  Gal Civ 3 has taken a step backwards on this imo.  I wouldn't want to see a return to the tax slider, but currently that system caused less micromanagement issues for me at least, though it was far from perfect.

EDIT:  Actually there was a lot of micro in the old system thinking about it, perhaps I'm more annoyed by the waste than the micromanagement.  Would be nice if they got rid of both though other successful 4X games have e.g. Amplitudes games.

Reply #21 Top

Space Empires has always allowed:

  • multiple techs in 1 turn (as many as you can finish)
  • multiple units in 1 turn.  A unit is a small commodity, not self-mobile, which is carried as cargo on ships.  Units include fighters (tactical in space, but cannot warp), satellites and mines (immobile in space), weapon platforms (immobile on planets), and troops (tactical on planets).  They cost so little that even a tiny planet with no factories can pump out 2-10 of them per turn.  (Standard technique: you schedule a tour of planets to build to the height of a helix, where height represents turns-from-now, and move one cargo transport along that helix to pick them all up in a single pass.)

Also, due to gun-range gaming :hrmph: , bigger ships are better, at least up to cruiser tech (frigate, destroyer, light cruiser, cruiser) , and so you generally cease to build the cheaper ships.  Then your available ship size tech increases way faster than your build-rate tech, and so your turns-per-ship strictly increases, and never goes down toward 0.5.

So I have no idea if you could actually research Shipyard up to level 10 (in Capt. Kwok's Balance Mod) and then build 2+ empty frigate hulls in 1 turn.  Anyhoo, I win the game long before then!

It has not proven to be game-breaking to allow dozens of units per turn, with mid-game stockpiles of thousands of them.  (You pay their upkeep!)   They basically wipe each other out, so you must drop 100+ troops to conquer a homeworld's 100.  They're fodder for any well-prepared ship, e.g. one with gun range 1+ hexes longer than their cannons :)

Once the AIs reach shield tech and start spamming weapon platforms with shield generators ... then planetary bombardment becomes very tedious and not fun, and most players quit and restart.  So it's a race to kill all 17 AIs before any of them get that far.  Disable their tech trading!

I don't know if SE* allows multiple ships in 1 turn (from one planet/shipyard), because ships generally cost more than 1 shipyard facility's per-turn build rate.  N.B. SE*'s ship-spam throttle is that your shipyard facility has a build rate in materials/turn, regardless of how many resources you actually produce.

  • Standard work-around: Build a shipyard starbase, which is an upkeep boondoggle, but has its own puny shipyard component, which can thereafter build another ship independently, but at a slower rate.  No limit to the number of yardbases you can have in orbit.  The stock AI is hard-coded to build that first, which I call the Yardbase Gambit.  I've worked out the math, and it sucks eggs: not worth the cost, you'll run your yolk dry and have to suspend one or both of your shipyard queues long before your economy gets rich enough to support two queues.  Heck, I only ever gain a shipyard by conquering an enemy homeworld, 1 per homeworld, and even I can't pay to run all N of those shipyards at full throttle all of the time.
  • Ridiculous/silly exploit: Have your first yardbase build another yardbase!!  (Or, a shipyard ship build another of its own type.)  Yes, this enables exponential growth, if you can pay for it.  (No, you can't pay for it in early game.)  But in mid-late game ...
    • I did this once, and it had me bouncing up and down in my chair for two hours because it was sooooooo ba-rokenly fun.  SE3, mid-game, I had already conquered about 6 AIs, so my empire was filthy rich, with more resources saved than I could spend.  My rejuv (unarmed boarder/shipyard ship, to scavenge crippled enemy hulls) warped blindly into an enemy fleet, retreated from tactical combat out of the space warp hex, and thereafter could not return (because that fleet is sitting on the warp hex).  So it had to sprint through the system and escape through another warp ... which strands it far from home, right?  The neighboring system was ... a space storm system, no star and no planets, just storms.  (It's an SE* thing.)  Oh noes, it's trapped, and far from resupply!  But -- it is a rejuv ...
    • SE* game rule: All shipyard build queues (for both planet facility and ship component) draw freely from your empire's stored resources, regardless of map distance or connectivity.
    • SE* game rule: Newly-constructed ships have full supply.  If they include supply components, or weapons with ordnance, those are constructed fully loaded, too.
    • SE* game rule: A ship with shipyard component can build units.  However, it must also have empty cargo space, or the built units are lost immediately.
    • So ... my rejuv burrowed in, like an ant queen newly shedding its wings after its one-and-only mating flight, and ... laid eggs.  It built another rejuv, those two built two more.  Four rejuvs then built light cruiser attack ships.  My original rejuv then borrowed some supply points from some of its babies, yup yup.
    • One of the new rejuvs sacrificed engines for cargo bays.  It built ... troops :D
    • Two hours later, my rejuv + fleet of about 20 light cruisers warped back into the enemy system and pacified it: shot down all ships, took down all fighter swarms with their point-defense, bombarded all weapon platforms into rubble, and conquered some small outlier planets (Mars-ish).  Those little planets promptly started to build 120 troops for the homeworld invasion, and a troop transport ship to carry them.  (IIRC, I quit that game after that night -- there was no topping that trick.)
    • So, yah, my one ship, in an empty system with no resources, trapped and disjoint from my empire, with no hope of escape or rescue ... conjured up an invasion fleet out of nothing.  And I had enough resources stockpiled to pay for 500+ ships, so I could have repeated this 25 times, except that there did not exist 25 more AIs who needed it.

I believe you can do the same trick in SE4 and SE5, since a shipyard ship has the same unblockable access to your empire's resource treasury, and it can build another of itself.  (I never needed to; I won games too fast to ever have that much build time, haha.)  More deeply, this larger/broader concept of a bootstrapping invasion (or, generically, threat from situated exponential growth) is a lovely pattern/concept/nugget, which may be worth exploring at game-design time.  There are some nifty parallels with biological life:

  • Bacterial infection.   Bacteria are optimized to do exactly one thing in life: to convert local resources into more copies of themselves ASAP.  Let one bacterium find a food supply, and you get billions of bacteria.  The analogy leaks because: teleporting empire-wide resources to a ship anywhere on the map, regardless of reachability, violates "locality" of food supply.
  • Viral infection.   Viruses hijack a cell's existing RNA-transcription machinery to have it produce more copies of the virus, until the cell literally pops like an overfilled water balloon.  Hence, a virus does not carry its own machinery, and is dormant without one.  When my invasion skirmishers drop onto a tiny, poorly-defended planet-with-shipyard (it's an SE* AI thing), I gain a shipyard for cheap, which is very much like hijacking the enemy's own machinery to build more copies of my troops.  The analogy leaks because: I'z not dormant, mu-ha-ha.

This situated exponential growth trick, as done in SE3, does not even violate GC3's restriction of one ship per turn, because the SE3 build rates are completely normal, and they never exceed the threshold.  GC3's mechanism of shipyard decay with distance, and the lack of a shipyard component, adequately prevents this -- yay or boo.  Stepping back (or up a few tiers), we could re-envision this as, say, a campaign-level threat or endgame pacification primitive:

  • Sun-killer torpedo.  If you fail to shoot it down, then on turn T+20, your sun goes nova.  The end (for you).
  • Ant queen.  She runs through your home system, and hides under a rock.  If you fail to shoot her down, then on turn T+20, she comes back with a fully-loaded invasion fleet.
  • You've Got Bad Data.  Your own build orders, using your own shipyards, suddenly ... declare sentience, independence, and war upon you.  Thereafter, they intelligently re-add themselves to your own queues, change your UI to disable your mouse clicks, replace your bridge components with Rogue AI components, and promptly conquer your own planets.
  • He's Got Bad Data.  In Covert Intelligence, you compose a treaty to hostile AI, but embed as its text ... a copy of the You've Got Bad Data meme.  When AI leader reads your message, he gets bad data.

i.e. the ant queen rejuv ship is the "uber-weapon" that kills off one entire enemy system per shot.  Like a very large bullet.  It would be hypnotic to watch an RTS-like game at this high level, where your individual shots are like bacteria looking for food, and you judge their success over tens of seconds by watching colored blooms of growth pop into existence and expand like splashes, as portions of the enemy empire on the cloth map just wither and die.  Meanwhile, they're bombarding you with the same, and you're racing!  Hah!  Evolve your defenses to counter that!

 

Oh ... as for this thread topic, my general solution is unrestricted scripting to automate the micro away however we like, to the limit of the player pools' combined l33tness.  If not in this game, then in the next.  Think and play at higher levels.

Reply #22 Top

Let's think of the largest maps when we discuss production overflow. .. With 200+ planets you don't want to constantly manage it

Reply #23 Top

Maybe make it a setting. .. do you want it yes/no

Reply #24 Top

First question of the stream, Paul says one turn overflow is already in. Wonder which beta he thinks it's in.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Gilmoy, reply 21

Space Empires has always allowed:

 

    • multiple techs in 1 turn (as many as you can finish)

 

    • multiple units in 1 turn.  A unit is a small commodity, not self-mobile, which is carried as cargo on ships.  Units include fighters (tactical in space, but cannot warp), satellites and mines (immobile in space), weapon platforms (immobile on planets), and troops (tactical on planets).  They cost so little that even a tiny planet with no factories can pump out 2-10 of them per turn.  (Standard technique: you schedule a tour of planets to build to the height of a helix, where height represents turns-from-now, and move one cargo transport along that helix to pick them all up in a single pass.)

 


Also, due to gun-range gaming :hrmph: , bigger ships are better, at least up to cruiser tech (frigate, destroyer, light cruiser, cruiser) , and so you generally cease to build the cheaper ships.  Then your available ship size tech increases way faster than your build-rate tech, and so your turns-per-ship strictly increases, and never goes down toward 0.5.

So I have no idea if you could actually research Shipyard up to level 10 (in Capt. Kwok's Balance Mod) and then build 2+ empty frigate hulls in 1 turn.  Anyhoo, I win the game long before then!

It has not proven to be game-breaking to allow dozens of units per turn, with mid-game stockpiles of thousands of them.  (You pay their upkeep!)   They basically wipe each other out, so you must drop 100+ troops to conquer a homeworld's 100.  They're fodder for any well-prepared ship, e.g. one with gun range 1+ hexes longer than their cannons :)

Once the AIs reach shield tech and start spamming weapon platforms with shield generators ... then planetary bombardment becomes very tedious and not fun, and most players quit and restart.  So it's a race to kill all 17 AIs before any of them get that far.  Disable their tech trading!

I don't know if SE* allows multiple ships in 1 turn (from one planet/shipyard), because ships generally cost more than 1 shipyard facility's per-turn build rate.  N.B. SE*'s ship-spam throttle is that your shipyard facility has a build rate in materials/turn, regardless of how many resources you actually produce.

 

    • Standard work-around: Build a shipyard starbase, which is an upkeep boondoggle, but has its own puny shipyard component, which can thereafter build another ship independently, but at a slower rate.  No limit to the number of yardbases you can have in orbit.  The stock AI is hard-coded to build that first, which I call the Yardbase Gambit.  I've worked out the math, and it sucks eggs: not worth the cost, you'll run your yolk dry and have to suspend one or both of your shipyard queues long before your economy gets rich enough to support two queues.  Heck, I only ever gain a shipyard by conquering an enemy homeworld, 1 per homeworld, and even I can't pay to run all N of those shipyards at full throttle all of the time.

 

    • Ridiculous/silly exploit: Have your first yardbase build another yardbase!!  (Or, a shipyard ship build another of its own type.)  Yes, this enables exponential growth, if you can pay for it.  (No, you can't pay for it in early game.)  But in mid-late game ...



      • I did this once, and it had me bouncing up and down in my chair for two hours because it was sooooooo ba-rokenly fun.  SE3, mid-game, I had already conquered about 6 AIs, so my empire was filthy rich, with more resources saved than I could spend.  My rejuv (unarmed boarder/shipyard ship, to scavenge crippled enemy hulls) warped blindly into an enemy fleet, retreated from tactical combat out of the space warp hex, and thereafter could not return (because that fleet is sitting on the warp hex).  So it had to sprint through the system and escape through another warp ... which strands it far from home, right?  The neighboring system was ... a space storm system, no star and no planets, just storms.  (It's an SE* thing.)  Oh noes, it's trapped, and far from resupply!  But -- it is a rejuv ...

 

      • SE* game rule: All shipyard build queues (for both planet facility and ship component) draw freely from your empire's stored resources, regardless of map distance or connectivity.

 

      • SE* game rule: Newly-constructed ships have full supply.  If they include supply components, or weapons with ordnance, those are constructed fully loaded, too.

 

      • SE* game rule: A ship with shipyard component can build units.  However, it must also have empty cargo space, or the built units are lost immediately.

 

      • So ... my rejuv burrowed in, like an ant queen newly shedding its wings after its one-and-only mating flight, and ... laid eggs.  It built another rejuv, those two built two more.  Four rejuvs then built light cruiser attack ships.  My original rejuv then borrowed some supply points from some of its babies, yup yup.

 

      • One of the new rejuvs sacrificed engines for cargo bays.  It built ... troops :D

 

      • Two hours later, my rejuv + fleet of about 20 light cruisers warped back into the enemy system and pacified it: shot down all ships, took down all fighter swarms with their point-defense, bombarded all weapon platforms into rubble, and conquered some small outlier planets (Mars-ish).  Those little planets promptly started to build 120 troops for the homeworld invasion, and a troop transport ship to carry them.  (IIRC, I quit that game after that night -- there was no topping that trick.)

 

      • So, yah, my one ship, in an empty system with no resources, trapped and disjoint from my empire, with no hope of escape or rescue ... conjured up an invasion fleet out of nothing.  And I had enough resources stockpiled to pay for 500+ ships, so I could have repeated this 25 times, except that there did not exist 25 more AIs who needed it.




I believe you can do the same trick in SE4 and SE5, since a shipyard ship has the same unblockable access to your empire's resource treasury, and it can build another of itself.  (I never needed to; I won games too fast to ever have that much build time, haha.)  More deeply, this larger/broader concept of a bootstrapping invasion (or, generically, threat from situated exponential growth) is a lovely pattern/concept/nugget, which may be worth exploring at game-design time.  There are some nifty parallels with biological life:

 

    • Bacterial infection.   Bacteria are optimized to do exactly one thing in life: to convert local resources into more copies of themselves ASAP.  Let one bacterium find a food supply, and you get billions of bacteria.  The analogy leaks because: teleporting empire-wide resources to a ship anywhere on the map, regardless of reachability, violates "locality" of food supply.

 

    • Viral infection.   Viruses hijack a cell's existing RNA-transcription machinery to have it produce more copies of the virus, until the cell literally pops like an overfilled water balloon.  Hence, a virus does not carry its own machinery, and is dormant without one.  When my invasion skirmishers drop onto a tiny, poorly-defended planet-with-shipyard (it's an SE* AI thing), I gain a shipyard for cheap, which is very much like hijacking the enemy's own machinery to build more copies of my troops.  The analogy leaks because: I'z not dormant, mu-ha-ha.

 


This situated exponential growth trick, as done in SE3, does not even violate GC3's restriction of one ship per turn, because the SE3 build rates are completely normal, and they never exceed the threshold.  GC3's mechanism of shipyard decay with distance, and the lack of a shipyard component, adequately prevents this -- yay or boo.  Stepping back (or up a few tiers), we could re-envision this as, say, a campaign-level threat or endgame pacification primitive:

 

    • Sun-killer torpedo.  If you fail to shoot it down, then on turn T+20, your sun goes nova.  The end (for you).

 

    • Ant queen.  She runs through your home system, and hides under a rock.  If you fail to shoot her down, then on turn T+20, she comes back with a fully-loaded invasion fleet.

 

    • You've Got Bad Data.  Your own build orders, using your own shipyards, suddenly ... declare sentience, independence, and war upon you.  Thereafter, they intelligently re-add themselves to your own queues, change your UI to disable your mouse clicks, replace your bridge components with Rogue AI components, and promptly conquer your own planets.

 

    • He's Got Bad Data.  In Covert Intelligence, you compose a treaty to hostile AI, but embed as its text ... a copy of the You've Got Bad Data meme.  When AI leader reads your message, he gets bad data.

 


i.e. the ant queen rejuv ship is the "uber-weapon" that kills off one entire enemy system per shot.  Like a very large bullet.  It would be hypnotic to watch an RTS-like game at this high level, where your individual shots are like bacteria looking for food, and you judge their success over tens of seconds by watching colored blooms of growth pop into existence and expand like splashes, as portions of the enemy empire on the cloth map just wither and die.  Meanwhile, they're bombarding you with the same, and you're racing!  Hah!  Evolve your defenses to counter that!

 

Oh ... as for this thread topic, my general solution is unrestricted scripting to automate the micro away however we like, to the limit of the player pools' combined l33tness.  If not in this game, then in the next.  Think and play at higher levels.

End of Gilmoy's quote

 

having played SE4 extensively (I still have games going on) This problem was also becoming bigger if you would factor in ships that could mine resources from asteroids and planets and with mods, ships with components to generate resources out of the blue: research labs, hydroponics etc... a lot of fun!

But SE assumes that all of your ships are always receiving access to your empire stockpile through invisible cargo ships. And I'm ok with that.

Multiple build queue items were in, but the game, nay the series had problems with AI.