[Feature request] visual cue on ship type in enemy fleet

On this moment when you click on an enemy fleet (or stack) it is not directly clear what kind of ships are in the selected fleet/stack. So to determine if, when and where to attack enemies fleets you now must look at the tooltip or ship details for each ship in said fleet/stack.

Let say to following situation occurs: Two enemy fleets approach your planet, but you can only intercept one. To determine which to intercept you need to know if there are any transporters in one of the two fleets. If you attack blindly you risk losing a planet if it is the other fleet that has the transporters. If both have transporters your shafted anyway, but then you might take out the most advantageous one to limit further damage (i.e. losing a second planet).

If possible i would like to see some kind of mini icons in the fleet (stack) info panel over (or next to) a ship (fleet) icon indicating the type of ship (or ships in the fleet). For example:

  • a small green ball (planet) icon to indicate a colonizer;
  • a small red ball (planet) icon to indicate a transporter;
  • a small red ship (ship) icon to indicate a battle ship;
  • small blue concentric rings (radar) icon to indicate a survey ship.

 

6,058 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top

I'm not too sure about this.  I have deliberately designed ships whose ship type is well disguised, specifically to confound the enemy in situations as you describe.  What happens to my clever "camouflage" if the game sticks little label icons on everything?  I don't even want the AI knowing which of my ships is which until one of them starts shooting, let alone some player like you.

Reply #2 Top

I dont know what their gonna do in GC3 but in GC2 you could click on a enemy fleet/ship in your sensor range (visible on screen but not docked on enemy planet) and it would bring up a fleet screen with what ships are in the fleets and you could click on a individual ship in that fleet and findout via its intelligence screen what its components were?

Reply #3 Top

Quoting erischild, reply 1

I'm not too sure about this.  I have deliberately designed ships whose ship type is well disguised, specifically to confound the enemy in situations as you describe.  What happens to my clever "camouflage" if the game sticks little label icons on everything?  I don't even want the AI knowing which of my ships is which until one of them starts shooting, let alone some player like you.
End of erischild's quote

We can have it both ways, by additionally introducing an option during game setup: "Enable/disable tactical ship icons".

Looks in the direction of mormegil  :pout:

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Echelion, reply 2

I dont know what their gonna do in GC3 but in GC2 you could click on a enemy fleet/ship in your sensor range (visible on screen but not docked on enemy planet) and it would bring up a fleet screen with what ships are in the fleets and you could click on a individual ship in that fleet and findout via its intelligence screen what its components were?
End of Echelion's quote

You can already look at the details of an enemy ship, whether it is on it's own or in a fleet. But do you really want to check every ship in every enemy fleet (or worse in a doom stack of ships)?

 

Reply #5 Top
Quoting Thecw, reply 4
Quoting Echelion,

I dont know what their gonna do in GC3 but in GC2 you could click on a enemy fleet/ship in your sensor range (visible on screen but not docked on enemy planet) and it would bring up a fleet screen with what ships are in the fleets and you could click on a individual ship in that fleet and findout via its intelligence screen what its components were?



You can already look at the details of an enemy ship, whether it is on it's own or in a fleet. But do you really want to check every ship in every enemy fleet (or worse in a doom stack of ships)?

 

End of Thecw's quote

Personally I just check what the details of each type of ship and multiple by the amount of ships in a fleet? :thumbsup:

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Echelion, reply 5

Quoting Thecw, reply 4
Quoting Echelion,reply 2

I dont know what their gonna do in GC3 but in GC2 you could click on a enemy fleet/ship in your sensor range (visible on screen but not docked on enemy planet) and it would bring up a fleet screen with what ships are in the fleets and you could click on a individual ship in that fleet and findout via its intelligence screen what its components were?


You can already look at the details of an enemy ship, whether it is on it's own or in a fleet. But do you really want to check every ship in every enemy fleet (or worse in a doom stack of ships)?

 

Personally I just check what the details of each type of ship and multiple by the amount of ships in a fleet?
End of Echelion's quote

I mean you have to select the enemy fleet, then mouse-over every ship in the fleet info panel to see in the tool tip what the ship type is. For ships/fleets in stacks it will take even more time. It gets boring really fast. Wait till we going to get really large galaxies with loads of enemies and see what that will be like.

I rather spend my time playing than micro investigating every fleet that i will meet.

Reply #7 Top

Unless their heading for one of my planets or I'm checking what type of weapons/defences a certain enemy is using I dont analise every fleet on the screen/map I'm too busy playing the game myself mate :grin:

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Echelion, reply 7

Unless their heading for one of my planets or I'm checking what type of weapons/defences a certain enemy is using I dont analise every fleet on the screen/map I'm too busy playing the game myself mate
End of Echelion's quote

So am i \o/ .

But, when i go on the offensive, i tend to wage an undersized and overreached campaign. Meaning most of my fleets are weaker than the enemies fleets (think: 1 transporter plus 1 combat ship for escort) and i have no safe havens for them near. This means i have to protect them with my combat fleets. Normally once i take an enemy planet i reorganize my combat fleet: moving the former escort ship into the fleet and moving a damaged ship out of it, which will become the new planet guard. However this can leave your newly acquired planet defenseless for a turn, so if an enemy fleet has the planet in range i better be sure that it does not has a transporter in it.

Secondly, at the moment the AI does not attacked defended planets - even if the defender is a lonely unarmed scout. But in the real (non-beta) game this will change and the AI will get a lot better, therefor i foresee that AI will deploy multipronged attacks/defenses like any sane human would do. This drives the need for useful tactical information.

Reply #9 Top

Physical boardgames have this problem, too.  Most impose a stacking limit of counters in every hex.  Cardboard counters are opaque.  So ... you can't easily add up how many combat factors are in a hex.  You can't sweep your gaze across the board and see it in terms of a histogram of summed combat factors.  You can't even keep track of your own units.

The physical solution is: long tweezers, and a great deal of fine hand motion.  Or, you sideboard the entire combat, which means you physically shift all of the stacks (within a small region) to a side table with a ginormous hex grid, where every hex is like 3" on a side, so you can lay out a stack of 10 counters horizontally.  Then sweeping your gaze works a little better (except that you still can't keep track of the sums).  Your opponent will gladly cooperate by moving her own stacks, because she can't see hers either.

A computer-based game should leverage the computer to automate many of these mindless, "click-level" details away.  I fully support the OP's idea of zoomed-out icons that carry tactical information.  I'd go a step further and plea for (and write into my 5X, when I get to it) user-scripted icons, i.e. you choose your own icons (or import, or edit, your own), write a nifty lambda-expression or Boolean condition that teaches the engine when it shall be displayed (i.e. for what subset of the Cartesian product space of ships x modes x overlay hotkeys), and then the map gets labeled the way you want it.  Then players (meta-)compete in the richness, conciseness, and usability of their information-displays.

Quoting erischild, reply 1

I have deliberately designed ships whose ship type is well disguised, specifically to confound the enemy in situations as you describe.  What happens to my clever "camouflage" if the game sticks little label icons on everything?
End of erischild's quote

Sorry, but that's misplaced effort.  This is not a camouflage-based RPG. The AI doesn't care (and cannot even know) what your ships look like; it must see every ship as pure numeric-field data, including all contents of the ship's Details screen (and not much else).  (In fact, just imagine the kind of processing power you'd need to have a computer program "understand" a 2D image or 3D model.  Before it could be confused, it would need at least (a) a dynamic memory of past seen-shapes, ( b ) the ability to see a new shape and classify it, and (c) an ability to guess what a novel shape is.  Then you're relying on tricking the (c)-level reasoning to make it mis-classify a new shape.  That's ... multiple Nobels and Googles, very likely a thousand-billion-dollar industry when it matures later this century, and probably NSA will hire you and lock you up with promotions you cannot refuse.  You could use that to do automated bird censusing, or maybe fly it on a drone and label cars on the freeway in realtime, or scan crowds, or photos of crowds, and tag faces ... or build a home service robot that can interpret human facial expressions and gesture commands.  No way would that kind of power make its first appearance in a game engine.  I think you're putting computers on too high a pedestal.)

And most of that work is lost even vs. other humans.  If I've got my map zoomed out to the abstract-icons level, my PC never even renders your models (nor my own).  All I ever see of your ship is the numbers: its moves per turn, weapon factors, defense factors, and any pop or troops on board.  You can't camouflage those, because they're disjoint from each ship's model.  Ship design in GC3 is purely aesthetic, and has no effect on gameplay or ship combats.  Enjoy it as an artistic pastime, but don't demand what it can't deliver.

The idea of tactical icons is a bookkeeping device to make the PC automate repetitive details for us.  If it's in principle possible for us to drill-and-click one ship at a time and do our own summation, then let's just skip that rote work and have the UI display the summed histogram in the first place. Then we free our minds to play the game at the level of chess, instead of Qbert-with-the-mouse.  Camouflage could be the basis of a completely different game, but not GC3.

In SE5, I don't camouflage my troop transports as enemy colony ships.  Those really are (captured) enemy colony ships :grin: they work for me now

Reply #10 Top
Quoting Thecw, reply 8
Quoting Echelion,

Unless their heading for one of my planets or I'm checking what type of weapons/defences a certain enemy is using I dont analise every fleet on the screen/map I'm too busy playing the game myself mate



So am i \o/ .

But, when i go on the offensive, i tend to wage an undersized and overreached campaign. Meaning most of my fleets are weaker than the enemies fleets (think: 1 transporter plus 1 combat ship for escort) and i have no safe havens for them near. This means i have to protect them with my combat fleets. Normally once i take an enemy planet i reorganize my combat fleet: moving the former escort ship into the fleet and moving a damaged ship out of it, which will become the new planet guard. However this can leave your newly acquired planet defenseless for a turn, so if an enemy fleet has the planet in range i better be sure that it does not has a transporter in it.

Secondly, at the moment the AI does not attacked defended planets - even if the defender is a lonely unarmed scout. But in the real (non-beta) game this will change and the AI will get a lot better, therefor i foresee that AI will deploy multipronged attacks/defenses like any sane human would do. This drives the need for useful tactical information.

End of Thecw's quote

I see what you mean (1 Transport+1 Combat ship) whereas I normally send in a full combat fleet to secure the target planet and send in a fleet of troopships to take the planet.

Reply #11 Top

  not quite numbers more like an array with a bunch of number actually is more like how the computer sees the ship.