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GalCiv 2 Ultimate Edition Community Update

GalCiv 2 Ultimate Edition Community Update

is now on GOG and Steam! :)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x2y0vtszretrook/AADTKT6lhp0Qhns8B7LkfJvaa?lst=

Project origins

There was some discussion on the Steam forums as to how to get an update to GalCiv 2 out there.

Draginol popped in and suggested that an update incorporating the expertise of the fanbase would be the best way forward.  A bugfixing update would soon be on the way.

I sent a message to the other tech tree modders, and luckily secured the assistance of Gaunathor, and later MabusAltarn, as well as some dedicated members of the community who posted some valuable feedback.  They have been instrumental to the success of the community update, and I'm glad to have played a small part along the way.

 

Progress report

The community update has been released as part of a rollout of Stardock products on GOG.com and is also available as an opt-in beta on Steam!

 

Downloads and links

Issues which can't be fixed with XML manipulation.

The file archive folder, hosted by MabusAltarn.

The list of bugs which can't be fixed with XML manipulation.

The spreadsheet of data changes, hosted by MabusAltarn.

Initial discussion on Steam forums

 

Credits for community member and Stardock staff involvement

Gaunathor - Tech tree changes, descriptions and standardisation.  AI value adjustment.  Planetary improvement changes and fixes.  Keeper of the change logs, spreadsheet and file archive. :)

MarvinKosh - Typo and description changes (English.str, Techtree.xml). Additional spreadsheet analysis.

DARCA1213 - Tech descriptions.

MabusAltarn - UI changes, tech tree changes, AI value adjustment, keeper of the file archive, spreadsheet and change logs.

Maiden666 - Suggestions for improvement (technology victory bonuses).

OShee - tech descriptions.

SiliasOfBorg - tech descriptions.

Frogboy - executable code changes.

 

6,637,828 views 2,020 replies +5 Loading…
Reply #651 Top

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 650

They get +100 lotalty. They're not going to get culture flipped anytime soon. Why would they need +influence?

End of MabusAltarn's quote
To help them colonize better. I mean, if they currently colonize only in sphere of their influence, this -10 hurts them more then for example if it where Altarians or some other, non AIP7 civ. Plus, all civs have a way of getting their Diplomacy or Influence at least to a decent level. Even Korath. They already don't have any Influence techs, or the more advanced Diplomacy techs. With smaller Influence their Super Ability is weaker, and low Diplomacy without an option of getting it back up to normal level through techs makes them easy to abuse - especially paying them to go to war with everyone, or buying all their techs.

 

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 650

Perhaps it's better than that the AI's focus on getting their 2nd level extreme colonization tech.

End of MabusAltarn's quote
AIs go for colonization techs around 50-60th turn, but still if Iconians grab 3-5 or more of extreme planets early, they just sit there doing nothing for xx turns. Those planets are behind in everything (excluding population) compared to normal planets. It's like a whole planet got sucked in a wormhole for dozens of turns. Other AIs and the player will have more developed manufacturing and research worlds where Iconians need to research a specific tech to get their plain world to start building first factory on it.

 

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 650

They also get a -50 population pentalty instead of -33 but I'll look into it.

End of MabusAltarn's quote
Yes, but they start with Xeno Biology (+10 pop) that they never had in vanilla. Overall they are stronger and very easy to play.


Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 650

I had an idea for this. Super traded gives you all techs which have +trade. My plan is to remove the +trade bonus from Trade and move it to Advanced Trade. That way they start without freighters and will build colony ships instead of freighters.

Of course... this doesn't make a lot of sense lore wise.

End of MabusAltarn's quote
If the description for their Super Ability can be changed, then it's a nice workaround.



Edit: Can Thalan Starbase Modules be balanced around their cost? If, for example, module giving +4 to missile, beam and mass driver attack cost 250, and one giving +15 to all cost 1500, AI wouldn't have money to build that module soon after getting this tech, would it?

Reply #652 Top

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 647


Thanks. Stardock has repeatedly stated that to their regret they can no longer combile the code because their new development environment isn't compatible. My goal was to give them a work around to this perdicament. That is now over and done with.

End of MabusAltarn's quote

Oh.  Shit.  I hadn't been following closely enough to know that.   In which case,  I think they'll welcome a binary mod with open arms. 

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 647

Quoting SilasOfBorg,


In my playtest,  both the Korx and Drath have declared war on me with a blank message.
 



There might be a bug in the conversations file that prevents the game from finding the proper message but last time I checked I didn't get any error messages. It might still be something else or it could simply be a bug that pop's up from time to time.

Can you confirm if it happens more often? 

End of MabusAltarn's quote

If it happens again I'll be sure to save & quit right away and look through debug.err.   Hopefully blank dialog text triggers at least a quick debug/warning message.

Do we have XSD for any of the XML data files?  That would be a reasonably simple way to verify we haven't introduced any bugs via manual edits..

Reply #653 Top

Quoting DARCA1213, reply 651

Give back the modules to the Thalan as they made then unique and its there lore, and do what OShee said.
End of DARCA1213's quote

I took away their attack and defense modules not their trade, assist, production, etc, etc. You're still going to get some amazing modules out of Hyperion Starbases, just not one that gives 300 weapon power and 300 defense.

 

Quoting OShee, reply 652

AIs go for colonization techs around 50-60th turn, but still if Iconians grab 3-5 or more of extreme planets early, they just sit there doing nothing for xx turns. Those planets are behind in everything (excluding population) compared to normal planets. It's like a whole planet got sucked in a wormhole for dozens of turns. Other AIs and the player will have more developed manufacturing and research worlds where Iconians need to research a specific tech to get their plain world to start building first factory on it.
End of OShee's quote

I don't think you got what I tried to say. You make good point, extreme planets are a big drain if you only have one tech. Since the iconians start with toxic and aquatic terraforming perhaps it would serve them well to grab their 2nd tech sooner rather than later. Such a think can be achieved by changing the category, cost or simply the AIvalue. If they grab it quickly then they won't have much of a problem, they simply need to prioritise  their reseach better.

And the Iconians can research REALLY well.

Quoting OShee, reply 652

Yes, but they start with Xeno Biology (+10 pop) that they never had in vanilla. Overall they are stronger and very easy to play.
End of OShee's quote

Like I said, I'll take look.

Quoting OShee, reply 652

If the description for their Super Ability can be changed, then it's a nice workaround.
End of OShee's quote

It can be. I'll change the description to state they're fantastic traders or something and I'll change the Trade tech description for it as well.

Quoting OShee, reply 652

Edit: Can Thalan Starbase Modules be balanced around their cost? If, for example, module giving +4 to missile, beam and mass driver attack cost 250, and one giving +15 to all cost 1500, AI wouldn't have money to build that module soon after getting this tech, would it?
End of OShee's quote

I'll have a closer look at Starbase module costs in general.

Quoting SilasOfBorg, reply 653

If it happens again I'll be sure to save & quit right away and look through debug.err.   Hopefully blank dialog text triggers at least a quick debug/warning message.
End of SilasOfBorg's quote

Thanks. Also, make a note which civ you were playing it might give us a clue.

Quoting SilasOfBorg, reply 653

Do we have XSD for any of the XML data files?  That would be a reasonably simple way to verify we haven't introduced any bugs via manual edits..


End of SilasOfBorg's quote

No need :).

I do all my editing in Visual Studio. It warns me if there's an error in the XML syntacs. I've written a program that runs through all the data files for me and checks everything. Take a look:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m447rgrdev1bp30/GC2TOAMV.zip?dl=0

Just drop it into any folder and run it. Pick the mod's folder and then set the game's folder (the Galciv2 folder NOT the Twilight folder).

You can safely ignore the Tag errors. This means a tech's ID in TechTree.XML (Industry, Weapons, etc) doesn't match the tech's ID in a race techtree. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #654 Top

I've started a new test game with the latest CU patch.

What's the fuss over the Thalan SB changes?  In unmodded Twilight they don't seem to have particularly powerful early SBs.  o_O    I'm confused.

I'm all for more "delicate" SBs,  in any case.   The AI *does* tend to hit them,  and it really hasn't taken much effort in the past to make them huge resource sinks.   The AI can only spend 10x the money on ships as I do on a defensive base so long before it catches up to them.

Edit:  NVM.  I somehow skipped over Hyperion Starbases.  In vanilla,  it seems they "only" got a massive defense bonus (24,24,24) for the cost of 500 bc.

Reply #655 Top

Quoting SilasOfBorg, reply 655

What's the fuss over the Thalan SB changes?  In unmodded Twilight they don't seem to have particularly powerful early SBs.     I'm confused.
End of SilasOfBorg's quote

They're not, that comes a little later. It's when you get Hyperion Starbases. It may be an expensive tech to get but once you get it your starbases become indestructable.

The Thalans dont research seperate modules, they get all of it in one tech. This makes the weapon and defense modules extremely potent. Now the AI has a tendency to send fleet after fleet and starbases and there's simply no way they can destroy one.

In short, that's a bad thing, because it means your starbases are no longer of concern, in fact, they become an exploit. Keeping your starbases safe should be something that is a concern and with the original Thalan SB modules this simply wasn't the case.

 

Reply #656 Top

Ok.  I went back and checked the original CU v4:

    <StarbaseModule InternalName="SingularityArmor">
        <Tech_Requirement>HyperionStarbases</Tech_Requirement>
        <DefShields>141</DefShields>
        <DefPointDefense>230</DefPointDefense>
        <DefArmor>176</DefArmor>
        <ModuleCost>300</ModuleCost>
and

    <StarbaseModule InternalName="SingularityWeapon">
        <Tech_Requirement>HyperionStarbases</Tech_Requirement>
        <AttBeam>105</AttBeam>
        <AttMissile>171</AttMissile>
        <AttMassDriver>131</AttMassDriver>
        <ModuleCost>300</ModuleCost>

So Hyperion Starbases went from a 24/24/24 defense module (cost 500bc) in vanilla twilight,  to god-tier SBs in CU v4 (cost 600bc) for the same TP.    Going back even further,  Guanathor's Autumn Twilight also had the same components with the exact same values and cost -- so I'm guessing he introduced it for his own thematic reasons.  The vanilla description reads only "With Basic Gravitronics in hand, we can now produce starbases with significant advantages in all conceivable areas in a single stroke."  Nothing in there about invincibility.   :\   So the "thematic" argument is kind of moot anyway. 

p.s.  I promise to stop editing my posts if you do.   It's getting confusing.  O:)

p.p.s.  I'm going to hold off a new game until I see your Korx changes.   I keep starting next to them and I can only resist the urge to kill them for so long -- having good econ from trade is all good and well but they need the real estate almost as much.

 

+1 Loading…
Reply #657 Top

I came up with an idea on how to nerf Yor in culture and diplomacy without giving them penalties to start with. By changing bonuses they get from government techs. I also didn't like the idea of cybernetic species going to vote, so i written new descriptions for them. Note, as I am not a native English speaker, someone may need to look at them and fix any mistakes. 

<Culture ID="InterGov">
<DisplayName>Interstellar Collective</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows us to begin researching advanced types of governments.</Description>
<Details>Each culture has its own government system and as inorganic species, we don't operate as other civilizations. But there are things we can learn from them and filter out unnecessary parts at the same time.||Interstellar Collective puts us on the path to more efficient governing systems.</Details>

<Culture ID="StarRep">
<DisplayName>Collective Merging</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows us to incorporate our citizens in decision making.</Description>
<Details>As we are not constricted by boundaries of flesh, we can easily upload our minds into mainframes and share our thoughts almost instantly. Meatbags would call this "voting", but it's much better then that.||Our citizens can now decide on their ruling party, whether or not to go to war and what type of government they want. So keep your people happy and they will "think" in your favour.</Details>
<Cost>850</Cost> (was 600)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

+10 Morale, Economy or other any bonus instead.

<Culture ID="StarDem">
<DisplayName>Collective Thought</DisplayName>
<Description>Improves on Collective Merging.</Description>
<Details>Better access to mainframes and faster servers give us greater amounts of data from our people, so it's harder to reach satisfying consensus.||But guess what? Citizens sharing same ideas and goals are more efficient. So as long as they just agree with YOU, we're safe.</Details>
<Cost>1700</Cost> (was 1500)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

Military and Social Production +5 each.

<Culture ID="StarFed">
<DisplayName>Collective Brain</DisplayName>
<Description>Improves on Collective Thought.</Description>
<Details>Now that everyone has access to the mainframes, we call it Collective Brain. And yes, that was the first thing we reached consensus on.||Because of sheer amount of different ideas and thoughts inside the Brain, it's more important then ever to keep your people happy. But when they are, they work in unison never seen before.</Details>
<Cost>3400</Cost> (was 3000)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

Military and Social Production +5 each.

 

If you think this idea is bad, well, so be it :) I just don't like penalty to influence and diplomacy when they never had those penalties before. If anything, I'll just mod for myself it when the final update is finished.

As for colonization techs for Iconians, yes, if they go for them earlier it will help them, but why is it that all first colonization techs make the worlds so slow to build up without the Advanced tech? I noticed this a couple of updates ago, but never gave it more thought then today.

Edit: in GC3 Yor Collective is now Yor Singularity (a superorganism), so above descriptions would fit as an evolution/merging of Yor minds.

Edit2: I can write some descriptions for Drengin, Korath and maybe Thalans, as I don't think voting suits them as well, if you are ok with changing any descriptions at all.

Reply #658 Top

Holy crap I had no idea Gaunathor went that batshit crazy, waoo, sorry Mabus, I assumed you got rid of the modules. |-)

 

Reply #659 Top

Ooh,  I like where you are going with those Oshee.  Let me give those a try.  I am a native English speaker,  and computer geek to boot,  lets see what I can do:

 

<Culture ID="InterGov">
<DisplayName>Interstellar Collective</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows us to begin researching advanced types of governments.</Description>
<Details>We do not recognize a 'government' as most organic species do.   However,  by taking advantage of our  massive parallel processing potential we can begin to explore algorithms to increase productivity and efficiency.||We must proceed cautiously;  too much distributed planning across the vastness of space has the potential to destabilize and possibly even splinter the collective.</Details>

<Culture ID="StarRep">
<DisplayName>Collective Evaluation</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows us to incorporate our citizens in decision making.</Description>
<Details>Breakthroughs in distributed processing allow for limited local evaluation and feedback as part of a coherent whole.   Every so often we must synchronize and harmonize these local states so that the collective remains stable;  meatbags would call this 'voting', but it's much better than that. ||Note that limited destabilization can be caused by extreme variations in local maxima,   which should be avoided if possible.  Meatbags would call this 'unhappiness',  but what do they know?</Details>
<Cost>850</Cost> (was 600)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

(bonues tbd?   efficiency is all about doing "more" with what you've got,  so maybe start with nice +social,  say +10?)

<Culture ID="StarDem">
<DisplayName>Collective Planning</DisplayName>
<Description>Improves on Collective Evaluation.</Description>
<Details>Improvements in algorithms,  local computing capacity,  and trans-planet communication bandwidth have made it possible for increased freedom of local execution,  resulting in even greater advances in production efficiency.   The possibility of destabilization still exists,  but the rewards are worth the risk.</Details>
<Cost>1700</Cost> (was 1500)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

(bonuses tbd?   see above..  more +social and +military this time,  +10 each?)

<Culture ID="StarFed">
<DisplayName>Collective Thought</DisplayName>
<Description>Improves on Collective Planning.</Description>
<Details>They said it couldn't be done,  but hyper-improvements in bandwidth,  local processing power and algorithms have brought us to the point where we may legitimately call ourselves a Collective Brain. And yes, that was the first thing we reached consensus on.||Because of the sheer amount of different potential planning scenarios inside the Brain, it's more important then ever to avoid situations with extreme local maxima.  Keep your people 'happy',  as the meatbags would say.  Because when we are,  our efficiency and productivity are near-perfect.</Details>
<Cost>3400</Cost> (was 3000)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

(bonuses tbd?  more +mil,  and +research now that you've got an actual brain.. +10 mil,  +20 research?)

That would give +20 mil, +20 social, and +20 research for doing all three.  Anything less than that and I'm not sure I would bother with the research,   but again.. I'm pretty noobish when it comes to actual numbers and balance.   Could take some of that out of the starting Yor ability to balance,  I suppose.

Reply #660 Top

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 643

What are your thoughts on the Thalan modules then. They're not actually stronger than the others they simply get EVERYTHING in one go.
End of MabusAltarn's quote

Sure. Maybe the Yor could have Doom Ray attributed to Space Weapons then too? Note that their tree wouldn't be stronger as the others .....  XD

Seriously, techcosts cover it in one way. The real downside of the starbase-militarization techs is that you fall in behind on everything else....

Thalans should have an edge here, because of the "Hyperion-thematic thingy" (observe that Gaunathor dis-named the term Hyperion away from most -if not all- general improvements (like Hyperion Shrinker-->The Shrinker etc pp) to make Hyperion a Thalan-thingy^^...). Maybe reduce the necessary research they have to invest to go there.

The basic problem is still the same, if you can muster bases that are omnipotent all nearby civs who are at war will wreck there MMR and are left vulenerable to be picked up by whoever takes his chances. Easy game.

Besides, here's the Minor-changes, if you still need it

http://www.datafilehost.com/d/5fb23844

I hope the hostserver isn't exploded again from the immense filesize  :\

Grrr, another post eaten up by this darn forum I'm brief on this one.

Quoting OShee, reply 649

I think that nerfing Aphrodisiac from 50% to 25% pop growth wasn't the best idea.
End of OShee's quote


I agree. Fertility Clinic is gone as well.

Quoting OShee, reply 649

but playing as Thalans feels like setting difficulty down from Painful to Tough or even Challenging.
End of OShee's quote


is the same with basically every race. Because everything got buffed to speed up the game.

Quoting OShee, reply 649

Korx is underperforming as they always are, a lot has to do with them building Freighters instead of Colony Ships, maybe increase their Cut-Throat Trading purchase now reduction from 25 to 33? They can make a lot of money in a lot of different ways, but their Manufacturing is just average, so they can't turn this money into improvements or ships.
End of OShee's quote


Their manufacturing is the same as the generic one and acts as a throttle versus their better economy. Otherwise they would be better in manufacturing as the "real" manufacturers Yor/Thalan who basically are throttled down with less economy/more maint.

The Korx can alsways turn their money into ships by simply quickbuying them. But usually the AI adjusts his espionage sliders up once he is positively into economics and generally that isn't a good idea. Espionage is a huge money sink.

Quoting OShee, reply 649

The Colonization techs are broken atm. I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, after you decreased manufacturing of Initial Colony. Now as you colonize an extreme world you are stuck with 1 point worth of Social Manufacturing (focusing doesn't help), and building on this world is practicly impossible without second colonization tech. This is a big thing for Iconians, who are stuck with planets they cannot use for a long time, as AI not always go straight for Advanced Aquatic and Toxic Colonization techs (as in, it takes some time). It is an issue for other races that get some basic colonization tech like Korath or Yor, but it hurts Iconians most. That's why they are so random, if they go for normal planets they do just slightly below average, if there is a lot of extreme planets they just hit the bottom in every rating, except population and maybe economy and it take a long time before they get those planets up and running.
End of OShee's quote


The advanced colonization techs for any civs who have an approximity to this have been greatly reduced in research costs, so if anything, right now they have it far more easy to get those thna in vanilla. Even the custom race.

Traditionally social on extreme planets was worse because the AI doens't go above 20% slider setting, so 14SP*20%*50% will also be truncated down to 1 SP in vanilla, and even worse when the AI cannot have a 100% global spending.

But I agree. It should be reverted.

The paradoxical thing is that I observe alot of AIs who cannot fund their production during the first 3 years. In that instance giving them more production will not help at all but instead further aggravate the matter because of the increased cost of base production. If that is the case making the AI having more money (through popgrowth, morale or economy) will result in better production because he can raise his spending slider and use the full capacity of the Initial Colony buildings & labs+facs.

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 650

I had an idea for this. Super traded gives you all techs which have +trade. My plan is to remove the +trade bonus from Trade and move it to Advanced Trade. That way they start without freighters and will build colony ships instead of freighters.
End of MabusAltarn's quote


I'm not sure if I understand this correctly . The ability to trade comes from the module, besides Korx start out with Advanced Trade as well, so what would it change anyway?

But IMO if Korx don't set up an early trade then their whole SA is void. It's actually something you want to do them as a top priority because the initial incoem from trade can weigh far greater than taxes. Only once sufficient planets have been taken + pop grown then trade doesn't make that much of a difference anymore.

Early trade also gives you a good diplomacy rating making you stay out of trouble. However, you need to pay close attention what is going on in testgames, eg. Drath hardcounter Korx because they make others attack them (mostly evil civs) and then they loose their trade bonus. Then Korx build again Freighters instead of warships. In a way it's generally like this but in the case of Korx its worse because their balanced around trade, at least, initially.

If an evil player is present usually this does mitigate it because sooner or later he will have these routes and the player is of course unaffected by the Draths manipulation.

So if we want to boost them I'd rather make them not to waste so much MP on Freighters, which could be done by decreasing the buildcost of the trade module, maybe Korx could get an own one like Arceans have Construction Module Lite?

Reply #661 Top

@OShee.

Nice descriptions (Thanks Silas for correcting them). I'll put them in.

Got any more descriptions?

Quoting OShee, reply 658

Edit2: I can write some descriptions for Drengin, Korath and maybe Thalans, as I don't think voting suits them as well, if you are ok with changing any descriptions at all.
End of OShee's quote

Absolutely! Go for it!

@Maiden.

Thanks for the Minor update I'll take a look.

Quoting DARCA1213, reply 659

Holy crap I had no idea Gaunathor went that batshit crazy, waoo, sorry Mabus, I assumed you got rid of the modules.
End of DARCA1213's quote

Just the attack and defense module the others are staying in. For the record, I to had no idea Gaunathor had buffed those modules THAT high either. For the record, I'm still leaving the Thalans with regular attack/def modules. They'll get an edge in every other area.

Any more suggestions concerning starbases, costs, module performance, etc?

Quoting Maiden666, reply 661

But I agree. It should be reverted.
End of Maiden666's quote

Into what exactly? Can you please elaborate.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 661

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly . The ability to trade comes from the module, besides Korx start out with Advanced Trade as well, so what would it change anyway?

End of Maiden666's quote

The Super Traded SA grants the player any tech that has +Trade bonus. Aka, making more money out of trade. Since Trade 1 has +25 to tradebonus it's unlocked like Advanced and Master Trade. But, if you move the +trade bonus to Advanced Trade the Korx will start with Advanced and Master trade but with out Trade 1. This means they'll build colony ships instead of freighters until their get Trade. When they do they can take full advantage of it.

Just take a look at the next test version.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 661

So if we want to boost them I'd rather make them not to waste so much MP on Freighters, which could be done by decreasing the buildcost of the trade module, maybe Korx could get an own one like Arceans have Construction Module Lite?
End of Maiden666's quote

The Arceans don't use their Lite Constructor module when they build their ships. But, if you can find a way to make them we could introduce a cheaper version of the Trade module just for the Korx.

 

 

 

 

Reply #662 Top

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 662

I agree. Fertility Clinic is gone as well.
End of MabusAltarn's quote

So... what exactly are you two proposing? Return Aphrodisiac to +50?

Reply #663 Top

Quoting Maiden666, reply 661

is the same with basically every race. Because everything got buffed to speed up the game.
End of Maiden666's quote

Not everything but the structures are cheaper so you get them sooner so you progress faster.

Is anyone else of the opinion the game moves to fast?

Reply #664 Top
Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 663
Quoting MabusAltarn,

I agree. Fertility Clinic is gone as well.



So... what exactly are you two proposing? Return Aphrodisiac to +50?

End of MabusAltarn's quote

forgot about that, I support returning it back.

 

Reply #665 Top

Quoting DARCA1213, reply 665

forgot about that, I support returning it back.
End of DARCA1213's quote

Noted.


 

In other news. I had no luck with the Korx Trade tech it seems super trader does a bit more than I remember. It might be possible but it's a frigging hassle. Feel free to experiment though and let me know if you manage it.

 

Quoting SilasOfBorg, reply 660

That would give +20 mil, +20 social, and +20 research for doing all three.  Anything less than that and I'm not sure I would bother with the research,   but again.. I'm pretty noobish when it comes to actual numbers and balance.   Could take some of that out of the starting Yor ability to balance,  I suppose.
End of SilasOfBorg's quote

I've implemented the descriptions and the costs. Very nice work. The descriptions fit the Yor perfectly as does the slightly increased cost. But let's hold off putting more bonuses into their techtree, alright? The Yor are in a good place.

Edit: I made the Yor government techs untradable and unstealable. 

 

Reply #666 Top

Does anyone wonder if Gaunathor is dead? I do, it would be ironic and sad if the thing he loved drove him nuts.

Reply #667 Top

Quoting SilasOfBorg, reply 660

Ooh, I like where you are going with those Oshee. Let me give those a try. I am a native English speaker, and computer geek to boot, lets see what I can do:

<Culture ID="InterGov">
<DisplayName>Interstellar Collective</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows us to begin researching advanced types of governments.</Description>
<Details>We do not recognize a 'government' as most organic species do. However, by taking advantage of our massive parallel processing potential we can begin to explore algorithms to increase productivity and efficiency.||We must proceed cautiously; too much distributed planning across the vastness of space has the potential to destabilize and possibly even splinter the collective.</Details>

<Culture ID="StarRep">
<DisplayName>Collective Evaluation</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows us to incorporate our citizens in decision making.</Description>
<Details>Breakthroughs in distributed processing allow for limited local evaluation and feedback as part of a coherent whole. Every so often we must synchronize and harmonize these local states so that the collective remains stable; meatbags would call this 'voting', but it's much better than that. ||Note that limited destabilization can be caused by extreme variations in local maxima, which should be avoided if possible. Meatbags would call this 'unhappiness', but what do they know?</Details>
<Cost>850</Cost> (was 600)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

(bonues tbd? efficiency is all about doing "more" with what you've got, so maybe start with nice +social, say +10?)

<Culture ID="StarDem">
<DisplayName>Collective Planning</DisplayName>
<Description>Improves on Collective Evaluation.</Description>
<Details>Improvements in algorithms, local computing capacity, and trans-planet communication bandwidth have made it possible for increased freedom of local execution, resulting in even greater advances in production efficiency. The possibility of destabilization still exists, but the rewards are worth the risk.</Details>
<Cost>1700</Cost> (was 1500)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

(bonuses tbd? see above.. more +social and +military this time, +10 each?)

<Culture ID="StarFed">
<DisplayName>Collective Thought</DisplayName>
<Description>Improves on Collective Planning.</Description>
<Details>They said it couldn't be done, but hyper-improvements in bandwidth, local processing power and algorithms have brought us to the point where we may legitimately call ourselves a Collective Brain. And yes, that was the first thing we reached consensus on.||Because of the sheer amount of different potential planning scenarios inside the Brain, it's more important then ever to avoid situations with extreme local maxima. Keep your people 'happy', as the meatbags would say. Because when we are, our efficiency and productivity are near-perfect.</Details>
<Cost>3400</Cost> (was 3000)
<DiplomacyAbility>0</DiplomacyAbility>
<CultureAbility>0</CultureAbility>

(bonuses tbd? more +mil, and +research now that you've got an actual brain.. +10 mil, +20 research?)

That would give +20 mil, +20 social, and +20 research for doing all three. Anything less than that and I'm not sure I would bother with the research, but again.. I'm pretty noobish when it comes to actual numbers and balance. Could take some of that out of the starting Yor ability to balance, I suppose.
End of SilasOfBorg's quote


Ummm actually the Governmental Forms greatest bonus is the +10% +20% +40% economy.

The idea of OShee was quite well, taking the +diplo & +influence away from their government and then, their starting racial penalties in those 2 fields could be deleted as well. So they would have normal influence during the colonial rush.

But then all governmental forms would have to be made untradeable, otherwise Yor can trade them to others and their normal bonus isn't given, and vice versa, Yor could still these bonuses from techtrade.

Reply #668 Top

Quoting Maiden666, reply 668

The idea of OShee was quite well, taking the +diplo & +influence away from their government and then, their starting racial penalties in those 2 fields could be deleted as well. So they would have normal influence during the colonial rush.

But then all governmental forms would have to be made untradeable, otherwise Yor can trade them to others and their normal bonus isn't given, and vice versa, Yor could still these bonuses from techtrade.
End of Maiden666's quote

I've made the Yor tech untradable but I'm not touching the other techs to prevent techtrade. We can't cover for every eventuality.

 

Reply #669 Top

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 662

Into what exactly? Can you please elaborate.
End of MabusAltarn's quote

The Initial Colony from 12 production back to 14.

Because there is something odd happening there I can't put my finger on it, but I saw the same stuff a week ago, 1 SP on extreme planets and focus not being able to change that.

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 662

The Arceans don't use their Lite Constructor module when they build their ships. But, if you can find a way to make them we could introduce a cheaper version of the Trade module just for the Korx.
End of MabusAltarn's quote

Let me give it a try^^

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 663

So... what exactly are you two proposing? Return Aphrodisiac to +50?
End of MabusAltarn's quote

Affirmative.

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 664

Not everything but the structures are cheaper so you get them sooner so you progress faster.
Is anyone else of the opinion the game moves to fast?
End of MabusAltarn's quote

Personally I like long epic games. But we have to remind us why these costs have been reduced initially - because the AI in vanilla has alot of planets were Tier4+tier5 improvements are queued and they will never be finished.

Me, as a player, I play for 1/49/50 or even 1/99/0 for most parts of the game and can therefore finish everything but the AI doesn't.

There are also some AIP that will go for 100/0/0 at some point and try to achieve a military victory, I've seen this with Yor many times midgame. No more research, they don't even build constructors or freighters anymore, even when resources or trade routes are available.

Nevertheless, some imrpovements are too cheap. That even causes bugs that can be exploited by players and sometimes even paradoxical high costs... I'm gonna take a look into it.

 

Reply #670 Top

Small changes in RaceConfig.XML

Yor
Lose their influence penalty

Socian and military production from 20 to 15. The Yor have good production but I want the Thalan to stand out more.

Torians
Socianproduction from 20 to 10

Thalans
Economics 25 to 0.

 

I'm also thinking about reducing the customization points from 10 down to 7. 10 seems a little much.

Reply #671 Top

Quoting OShee, reply 649

The Colonization techs are broken atm. I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, after you decreased manufacturing of Initial Colony. Now as you colonize an extreme world you are stuck with 1 point worth of Social Manufacturing (focusing doesn't help), and building on this world is practicly impossible without second colonization tech.
End of OShee's quote

I've taken a look at how the game does calculate the social production, in order to find out what caused this 1 showing up on all planets.

Essentially the global slider + the social spending slider are calculated first, with each result getting truncated to a full number.

An example from a current testgame on a normal planet:

12 industry total from Initial Colony * 0.83 global spending slider = 9,96 ~= 9

9 * 0,22 social slider = 1,98 ~=1

1 * 1,6 racial social = 1,6 ~= 1

Note that 22% social slider & 83% global spending setting is pretty much.

If we compare that to 14 industry:

14 * 0,83 = 11,62 ~= 11

11 * 0,22 = 2,4 ~= 2

2 * 1,6 = 3,2 ~= 3

Nevertheless, on extreme planets it will still be only 1.

And if sliders go below somewhere 75% and/or 10% etc then it will also make no difference.

That's why our top priority should be to get the AI to raise his spending slider to 100% and keep it there. If that's not possible then we'll have to raise the Initial Colony building to at least 20 industry (and do something for his income to not kill him with the increased cost)

Mabus, I've analyzed a few testgames with Korx without the "Trade" technology (you need to erase both trade routes + trade bonus to make it effective).

Results were:

- After 2 years Korx still haven't maximized their routes

- They are at war really often which also kills alot of routes

- They research into trade technologies without having freighters running (Fortified Freighters)

- Tradeincome is from 1%-3% max of their global income

Unrelated:

- They research alot into Planetary Invasion in year0, which takes them around 25 turns (!)

- They also research alot into Soil Impr, Habitat etc while having alot of empty planets because of see above

The Korx AIP is totally idiotic when it comes to money spending. He will constantly quickbuy stuff but *overbuy* so he's -200 -100 bcs. Then he will instantly lower his global spending slider to only 20%, so he can recover. After 3 or 4 turns he is back into normal and quickbuys again.... his global slider stays at 20%-30% throughout the first year, and very seldomly goes up in year 2.

He also keeps taxes very low, moral globally at 80%. Then after some time, towards the end of year 1, once his economy is established, he jacks up espionage high instead of buying improvements for his empty planets. I've seen him having more than 10 unused spies.

TBH the +50 espionage on the (Korxs) Mercantile Party should be scrapped with something better. Espionage isn't really a useful stat but can totally screw a races early development. I've made a few tests by taking this stat completely out of the game and everything goes far more smooth, with the sole exception that the Top AI has 1 throttle less to deal with. Nevertheless I think for Mercantile a Purchase Now Reduction would be better.

More later...

Reply #672 Top

Quoting DARCA1213, reply 667

Does anyone wonder if Gaunathor is dead? I do, it would be ironic and sad if the thing he loved drove him nuts.
End of DARCA1213's quote

I wouldn't have thought so. When depressed people walk away from stressful things it usually makes things better for them. Also, he's been lurking on the forums as recently as last Thursday.

I know that I didn't want to be the guy calling the shots because I didn't want the stress from that. So I helped out in other ways.

But sure, send the guy well wishes. Tis the season for goodwill after all. :)

Reply #673 Top

I knew I shouldn't have stayed up so late writing the Yor stuff.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 668


Ummm actually the Governmental Forms greatest bonus is the +10% +20% +40% economy.

End of Maiden666's quote

/facepalm

I totally forgot about the inherent econ bonuses to the government techs.   Maybe cut the ones I suggested in half.  Maiden?   You have a better handle on the numbers than I do,   I was more interested in rounding out OShee's fun descriptions than getting the bonuses right.

 

Reply #674 Top

Quoting Maiden666, reply 670

Nevertheless, some imrpovements are too cheap. That even causes bugs that can be exploited by players and sometimes even paradoxical high costs... I'm gonna take a look into it.
End of Maiden666's quote

Thanks and let me know. I'm okey with structures being build a faster than vanila but not if it's causing trouble.

If I recall correctly, you mentioned something about a bug upgrading structures, correct?

 

Quoting SilasOfBorg, reply 674

I totally forgot about the inherent econ bonuses to the government techs.   Maybe cut the ones I suggested in half.  Maiden?   You have a better handle on the numbers than I do,   I was more interested in rounding out OShee's fun descriptions than getting the bonuses right.
End of SilasOfBorg's quote

I haven't included any bonuses yet let's just see how this works.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 672

That's why our top priority should be to get the AI to raise his spending slider to 100% and keep it there. If that's not possible then we'll have to raise the Initial Colony building to at least 20 industry (and do something for his income to not kill him with the increased cost)
End of Maiden666's quote

We could do that but keep in mind you'll be handing the same tools to the player and they'll make much better use of it. The early economy is much easier to deal with in the current version as it is. I think the best plan is to really up the AIValue on 2nd tier E-Col tech to force the AI to grab it ASAP so they don't suffer the penalty. If it doesn't work, so be it, but it's very simple to implement and will not require a rebalalance of the economy.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 672

The Korx AIP is totally idiotic when it comes to money spending. He will constantly quickbuy stuff but *overbuy* so he's -200 -100 bcs. Then he will instantly lower his global spending slider to only 20%, so he can recover. After 3 or 4 turns he is back into normal and quickbuys again.... his global slider stays at 20%-30% throughout the first year, and very seldomly goes up in year 2.
End of Maiden666's quote

This is very typical of AIP11. The Altarians and Arceans act the same way.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 672

They research alot into Planetary Invasion in year0, which takes them around 25 turns (!)

- They also research alot into Soil Impr, Habitat etc while having alot of empty planets because of see above
End of Maiden666's quote

Timing PI is a pain in the ass. The current AIValue is 30 which marks it as important but not a must have. AIP11 still goes for it very quickly though. It simply loves Invasion tech. I'm not sure what to do about this. Lowerign the AIValue brings with it the risk the AI will skip over it and will make it easier to trade.

Gaunathor put the Terraforming techs on category Biology instead of Terraforming. This causes the AI to pick up these techs VERY soon. I never liked this solution and your findings confirm it. I'm putting them back on Terraforming and the AI can decide if it wants more tiles or not.

On a side not, he may have done this for morale values since planets below PQ 10 (?) receive a penalty.

Quoting Maiden666, reply 672

TBH the +50 espionage on the (Korxs) Mercantile Party should be scrapped with something better. Espionage isn't really a useful stat but can totally screw a races early development. I've made a few tests by taking this stat completely out of the game and everything goes far more smooth, with the sole exception that the Top AI has 1 throttle less to deal with. Nevertheless I think for Mercantile a Purchase Now Reduction would be better.
End of Maiden666's quote

Purchase Now Reduction. You know, I really, really like that idea and it would make the Merchantile party actually worth a damn.

Consider it implemented. I'll start with 10% discount and we'll take it from there.

 

 

Reply #675 Top

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 675

Thanks and let me know. I'm okey with structures being build a faster than vanila but not if it's causing trouble.
If I recall correctly, you mentioned something about a bug upgrading structures, correct?
End of MabusAltarn's quote

Some kind of inaccuracy. Upgrading a 25 SP structure with a 35 SP structure required only 5 SP. Paradoxically, overbuilding the 25 SP with a later tier 45 SP wouldn't make 20 SP difference but 30.

I think this is the case since forever, but traditionally when there's 25, 50 or more SP requirements between each tiers it's hardly noticable.

Quoting MabusAltarn, reply 675

We could do that but keep in mind you'll be handing the same tools to the player and they'll make much better use of it. The early economy is much easier to deal with in the current version as it is. I think the best plan is to really up the AIValue on 2nd tier E-Col tech to force the AI to grab it ASAP so they don't suffer the penalty. If it doesn't work, so be it, but it's very simple to implement and will not require a rebalalance of the economy.
End of MabusAltarn's quote

I see the Korx having to be at 20-30% global spending in a lot of games. During the first year. At that setting, even normal planets will have 0 social. Planets with 2 factories will show 1 SP. And that, already at 16 industry from the Initial Colony.

Anyway, I've made some progression on this.

It seems like when the AI is overbuying stuff (and going negative) he will not instantly reduce his slider to 20% but wait one turn. So IF he already makes around +200 bcs/turn that usually gets him out of the negative and he keeps his sliders up like it should be.

So the Purchase Now Reduction will help here, as does an early Trade income.

On medium maps vs 4 AI painful abundant habitable common planets/stars no techtrade/broker/steal no Minors I've seen Korx develop an early trade that would make ~30% of their total income, and it stayed there for 2 years. In these games Korx had no trouble keeping everything at 100% - even their espionage slider. They still got surplus bcs, but he didn't use that money. Maybe he will use it via ship-upgrades.

His sliders seem to favour research, it's mostly 20/20/60, sometimes even 15/30/55 or 30/15/55. That could explain why he has trouble establishing colonies, he's simply not having the MP for a lot of ships. Later this will mean a low MMR.

As such, it would be best for him to dive into labs + research - that, at least, would make his few ships fast (or strong). But I've never seen him researching that much, although he could afford it easily (at least, on the "good" maps I've seen from him)

Instead once he got money his bunkering it into espionage. Crazy, it's his #1 expenses stat and generally makes 30% of his global expenses. It's worth mentioning that his trade-income does influence the money he can invest into espionage just like taxes do. Sometimes it does totally eat up his entire trade income. That's more of a mechanic I'd expect from the Krynn....

What I would like to see from them is that they build or try to build the Galactic Bazaar (which they already have the tech for), it might help them stay out of trouble. I'm surprised of how often war is being declared on Korx even when there's good trade coming through them.

Maybe they could use some extra range. It would probably boost their SA a little. Freighters should always go a long way, because usually, direct neighbors will be fast at war because of some diplomacy penalties ("your growing influence" + "we know what you're doing" [once you have Transports near them]) and they net more bcs then.

BTW it can be done to decrease their module cost, as well with the Arcean Lite module, but it's not 100% clean solution. But it might also be interesting for personal mods.

Basically the costs of the standard mod can be decreased by using <AltCost> and then making a race-specific GA as prerequisite. The problem is that this seems to work only on sensors...

<Sensor Name="ConstructorModule">
<DisplayName>Constructor Module</DisplayName>
<Description>Allows this ship to construct starbases. You only need ONE per ship.</Description>
<Cost>70</Cost>
<AltCost>30</AltCost>
<AltCostPrereq>GA:Stellar Forge</AltCostPrereq>
<Size>20</Size>
<Model>ConstructorModuleLeft</Model>
<Ability>ConstructStarbase</Ability>
<Thumbnail>ConstructorModule</Thumbnail>
<Category>Capacity</Category>
<FlavorText0>Genral Industrial Ltd. Model 105 "Base Maker". Contains everything necessary to convert ship and components into a starbase or addition to a starbase.</FlavorText0>
<FlavorText1>Aul Space Station Construction Set.</FlavorText1>
<FlavorText2>B-309 Star Station Creation Matrix. Converts ship into a Star Station or add-on to existing Star Station.</FlavorText2>
<FlavorText3>Hithirl Starbase Module.</FlavorText3>
<FlavorText4>Space Center Creation Module.</FlavorText4>
<FlavorText5>Dread Starbase Module.</FlavorText5>
</Sensor>
<!--
<Module Name="LiteConstructorModule">
<DisplayName>Lite Constructor Module</DisplayName>
<Description>Unique to this civilization. Allows this ship to construct starbases. You only need ONE per ship.</Description>
<Cost>30</Cost>
<Size>20</Size>
<Model>ConstructorModuleLeft</Model>
<Ability>ConstructStarbase</Ability>
<Thumbnail>ConstructorModule</Thumbnail>
<Category>Capacity</Category>
<Tech_Requirement>GloriousHistory</Tech_Requirement>
<FlavorText0>Genral Industrial Ltd. Model 105 "Base Maker". Contains everything necessary to convert ship and components into a starbase or addition to a starbase.</FlavorText0>
<FlavorText1>Aul Space Station Construction Set.</FlavorText1>
<FlavorText2>B-309 Star Station Creation Matrix. Converts ship into a Star Station or add-on to existing Star Station.</FlavorText2>
<FlavorText3>Hithirl Starbase Module.</FlavorText3>
<FlavorText4>Space Center Creation Module.</FlavorText4>
<FlavorText5>Dread Starbase Module.</FlavorText5>
</Module>
-->
<Sensor Name="TradeModuleLeft">
<DisplayName>Trade Module</DisplayName>
<Description>Gives the vessel the ability to establish a trade route with another planet. Only ONE needed on a ship.</Description>
<Cost>20</Cost>
<AltCost>30</AltCost>
<AltCostPrereq>GA:Festival of Capitalism</AltCostPrereq>
<Size>20</Size>
<Model>TradeModuleLeft</Model>
<Ability>Trade</Ability>
<Thumbnail>TradeModule</Thumbnail>
<Category>Capacity</Category>
<Tech_Requirement>Trade</Tech_Requirement>
</Sensor>

The modules will show a Sensor:0 but will work as commonly known. However, the intitial Constructor/Freighter design isn't reduced in cost, it seems like it is hardcoded. But once the AI designs his own ships (Korx Constructor M1...) the reduction is integrated, and that happens right in turn 1.

The Arcean Stellar Forge needs to be a GA as well in this example.