@DARCA Dang, that's a lot of planets under Yor control.

@Gaunathor Yeah, I think that AIP 8 suits the Yor better due to that need to set a fair tax rate and encourage early growth.

I am honestly scared to play against the Yor now, or at all. Who knows what monster AI you people will make next! Lol

(my games tech trees have more bonuses e.i 10% economics in planetary improvements and other techs. Seems to make the AI want them more.)

Morning.

I've seen the Yor do very, very well, it all depends on how they start the game. AIP11's love for biological tech can win them the day. But, considering how the Yor should be played I can see AIP8 doing better and now that we know how to tame AIP8 it shouldn't be that difficult. But I do feel at least one race should be AIP11 just to balance things out. Maybe the Iconians? I don't think it'll make a very big difference in how they perform and I had them on AIP11 on APT1.0 and 2.0.

As to the hulls being research to early.

I know this but it's nearly impossible to force the AI to get it right. Either they procrastinate much to long or they get their hulls very early. It's nigh impossible to time right, believe me I tried. 

When it comes to hulls we're left with two evils.

To early. Or to late.

It's the same with logistics. We could put the AIValue of basic logistics back to 30. This will make the tech valuable and AIP11 might pick it up eventually but this trick won't work with AIP8. So again we face the same evils.

To early. Or to late.

I'm in the to early camp. There's no way we can make the AI understand that logistics and hulls are quick ways to turn the tide of a war. Instead it will grind out weapons. The AI's need to be prepared as catching up is beyond their skill set.

I've placed the Yor back on AIP8. I'll test them and do some work.

I think the Krynn are the best choice to change to AIP11 for two reasons. One. Their tree is very similar to the Arcean, Altarian and Torian techtree. All AIP11 species that do well enough so it will save me a quite a bit of work. Two. BIOLOGY and the Krynn are perfect for this. Large terraformed planets pushing out HUGE amounts of influence. AIP11's weakness in morale handling won't be as bad for the Krynn either.

Ohhhhkey... I can see how you guys prefer AIP8 controlling Yor worlds. Geez... Anyway I got them back in business on AIP8. They get all their +pop, eco, industry, research and they do their planets better.

Terrifying. I'll see if I can get the Krynn running on AIP11. Shouldn't take long.

HEre's a version for the updated Yor on AIP8.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0w-HWDGP00gNXdoWTVseGVBazA/view?usp=sharing

It actually does work with AIP 8. Or rather, the AIValue of 32 works. I had set the Yor back to AIP 8, and used some of your tricks to get them to research better. However, I didn't use your trick for logistics, so they were still using the same values as AIP 11. They got Basic Logistics in 2227, and Enhanced Logistics by 2229.

I think we could leave the AIValues as they are, but remove the trick to force AIP 8 to research logistics. AIP 8 will still get those techs, just not as quickly as AIP 11. As long as they get some logistics for the first war, that should be okay.

Cool.  I'll give it a try later on.  Probably after I've had some sleep.

I've seen some different results. e.g. Terrans, Drengin, and especially the Krynn not picking up any logistics throughout an entire game and it seals their fate before any wars have begun. Also, the Krynn won't work on AIP11 as my idea requires farms and I've made some headway with AIP8 that leaves the Iconians but they're fine as they are. Terrans and Drath have SA that apparently need AIP8.

The Thalans however... They start with the biggest pentalty to population increase and their current AI doesn't research advanced colonisation. 

So... I think the Thalans could do well on AIP11 with just a bit of tweakign. They don't have farms (which AIP11 muchs up).

I just ran a few tests. The Krynn, Drath, Terrans, Thalan. None of them researched above Enhanced logistics if at all. I'm sorry but the AIP8 logistics fix needs to be in there.

How about a compromise. No messing around with ID/Category just AIValue -10 for basic and Enhanced. Those are cheap techs and it shouldn't take the AI to much time to grind through them. After that, it's on it's own.

Here are some screenshots from my last test game. I disabled the Logistics trick for all AIP 8 races.

Arceans:

They are on AIP 11, so it's not surprising that they have logistics.

Terrans:

They got  Basic Logistics in 2228, but I don't know, if they researched it, or bought it (I didn't pay much attention to what they did.   ).

The Yor researched Basic Logistics around the same time, so it's possible that the Terrans just bought it.

Speaking of the Yor, they most certainly researched beyond Enhanced Logistics.

I couldn't get pictures of the research screen from the other two players, the Iconians and Drath, because they were in a bit of trouble.

Though not for long. The Yor eventually took care of them.

All in all, it might be possible that the generic AIP 8 has less reservations regarding logistics, than the race-specific one. So we could set Basic and Enhanced Logistics to -10 for the Terrans, Drath, Krynn, and Thalan, while keeping them on the standard values for the Drengin, Iconians, and Yor.

I'm also going to increase the Aggression of the Drengin and Yor. Maybe that will help them get weapons sooner.

I'm confuuuuuusssed. The Krynn seem to be reseaching logistics now for no apparent reason. Well, I did put the AIValue of Enhanced Logistics at 26 to stop AIP11 from grinding all the way through to Advanced Logistics.

I'll run a few more tests.

Question. Thalan on AIP11. I tried the Krynn and it's a bad fit.

It could be worth a try. I had some problems with it, when I tried that with Autumn Twilight. Primarily getting the Thalan to research Industrial Adaptation and Technology Adaptation, and not screwing up their economy (though they do that on AIP 8 too sometimes). Maybe you have better luck.

ExtremeColonization
Category to Colonization
AIValue -10.

I could be mistaken but this forces all AI's to get this tech IF there's extreme planets it wants. Can anyone confirm?

Doesn't work on my end. The races seemed to treat the tech as usual. With AIP 11 going for it quite quickly, and AIP 8 pretty much ignoring it.

However, in one game, the Yor did research it pretty soon. They had the largest empire, and several of their planets were extreme worlds, they had conquered from the Iconians and Altarians. So, maybe it is working after all, and the races just didn't have the time and resources to go after Extreme Colonization in the previous tests.

I've confirmed my own finding. Category to Colonization and AIValue -10 does cause AIP8 to take a somewhat educated guess if Colonization is worth it. If it doesn't encounter any extreme planets it will leave the tech alone.

I've run several tests with AIP8 races in one galaxy. And I've seen all of them go for it from time to time but some more than others.

AIP11 definately loves the tech but with this simple change AIP8 can be enticed to go for it as well. When they get into a war they lose interest though.

While running these tests I checked on logistics research and... well... it was depressing. -10 for basic and enhanced seems to work well though with Basic Logistics on AI 30 and AI 26 on Enhanced. This prevents AIP11 from grabbing BL immediately.

Also, I got the Thalan running pretty well on AIP11. The extra planets they grab with extreme planets really seem to help them in the early game. The AI also seems to handle their morale quite well and has little difficulty getting their planets to max pop.

I've been thinking about this, and am willing to agree with the idea, as long as the tech fulfils the following criteria:

1. It has to be realistically usable and understandable by all races. So no Basic Gravitronics, Arenas of Agony, or Interstellar Refining.

2. It may not unlock a GA, or be a major feature of the owning race. So no Mercenaries, Precursor Studies, or War Profiteering.

Xeno Geology and Weather Control, for example, would be okay. What else would fit?

These were the same criteria as I had in mind (didn't mind to much if a GA was attached but it's a fair point. I'm nearly done with the Thalan conversion to AIP11 which is looking very good imo. Their high research causes them to plow through the advanced colonisation tech and they grab a lot of planets as a result.

Once I'm done I'll post the changes and work on a list of techs which could be stealable within limits. 

Aright. I've changed the Thalans to work with Thalans. Summary:

They'll grab their first levels of adaptation but will progress quickly to adaptation level 2. Adaptation level 3 is late game tech (it's REALLY expensive 7500/6500) but they do pick it up.

They'll grab their +pop tech quickly and start grinding through the advanced colonisation tech. Maybe 1 or 2 levels of terraforming. They grab all their advanced tech along the way as well.

* Expert Gravity Control
* Hyperion Hull design
* 4D Phasing and it two follow up techs

Hull progression is intentionally slower. They'll use small craft for a longer but you'll face maaaany of them since these guys can crank out ships like no bodies business and they'll have logistics coming out of their ears (if they had any. Do Thalans have ears?)

Changes:

TechTree.XML

ExpertGravityChanneling
Category Research to Pure Research
AI 10 to 30

HyperionStarbases
Category Manufacturing to Economics
AI 10 to 30

HyperionHullDesign
AI 30 to 35

PlanetaryAdaptation
Category Manufacturing to Pure Research
AI 10 to -10

IndustrialAdaptation1, 2, 3
Category Manufacturing to Pure Research
AI 10 to respectively 45, 31, 25

TechnologyAdaptation1, 2, 3
AI 10 to respectively 45, 31, 25

4D Phasing, DimensionalExploitation, DimensionalWeaponry
Category Research to Pure Research
AI 10 to 30

AlienSoilStudies
AI 25 to 10

Thalan Techtree

Advanced Hulls
AI to 30

PlanetaryImprovements
ID to Biology
Category to Biology

AdvancedGravitronics
ID to Computing

Removed AIP8 tweaks for PI and weapon progression and logistics.

Forgot to reply to this. This can be solved by setting Advanced Hulls to 30 as it stops AIP11 from instantly grabbing it but it will cause them to procrastinate their hull progression.

I've uploaded a never version of my changes (They contain the Thalan changes and a few Krynn optimisations). The Yor are probably in there as well but I have no idea how they currently fare since I did a lot of work to get them running on AIP11 and no doubt there's still some stuff I didn't change back.

A few others worth mentioning:

TechTree.xML

Basic Logistics
AI 32 to 30. 30 is more than enough for AIP11 to get interested and it stops the AI from diving into logistics immediately. AIP8 is a different matter. 

JihadOfKrynn
AI to -10 for instant grab.

LawsOfKrynn
AI to -10.

SuperiorEspionage
AI to -10

UltimateEspionage
AI to -10

InterstellarMissionaries
AI to -10

KrynniacConversion
AI to -10

KrynniacDisciples
AI to 55
Category to Pure Research.
(I may have listed this one)

Basic Miniaturization
AI to 20

Advanced Hulls
AI 32 to 30. I had to put an AI of 30 in the Thalan techtree or else I'd run into trouble. Maybe it's for the best this way. 

These changes cause the Krynn to grab every +influence tech they have and it shows. 

List of tech that could be stealable:

• Interstellar Expansion. aka Enhanced Adaptation. Torians, Iconians have it too). This tech has no baring on story and it's description was written for multiple races.
• Robust Hulls*
• Dark Influence. There's nothing there that states what the Korath do exactly so it could be stolen.
• XenoIntimidation. Iffy... but possible. I don't see Altarians doing this then again they are rather self righteous.
• UnconventionalWarfare. Maybe?
• OrganicMaterials. You could possibly steal this technology from another. Even the Iconians are just immitating the Precursors.
• OrganicHulls. Ditto
• SelfHealingHulls. And ditto
• ExpertEngineering. More Ditto.

Thalan techs are really specific to the Thalans but if we exclude them there will be nothing anyone can steal from them. Considering the Thalans moved to out dimension and are using currently available fusionreactors to do everything it is reasonable to assume other space faring being could understand these techs.

• Basic Gravitonics. I see no reason why another species could understand this technology.
• Expert Gravity Channeling. Same.
• Hyperion Hull Point. Same.
• 4d Phasing
• Dimensional Exploitation
• Dimensional Weaponry
• Near Omnipotence

my AAR, cut off point was 2229 on immense map. All planets are habitable and very fast tech speed. (sorry I don't know the API names so I will just use the race behavior names.)

While playing I changed the pussy terrans to kyrnn race behaviorl and they kick ass now, same for the altarian they have three times as many colonies as before. the Arcean are doing REAALYY good, they have alot of developed colonies and are making money on the krynn behavior as well. Iconian are now consistent on the kyrnn behavior as and had an average amount of colonies (38-50 for the game average). The only people not doing well on the kyrnn AI was the kyrnn! At least for this game, they were in dept till 2228. Lol but they bounced back Altarian and Terran had small hulls without weapons... Over all though these race had good colony rushes and were competitive.

Now for the big boys! Thalan are consistently good

Torian are like the Yor in my screen shot, but start a bit later and aren't as strong, maybe a bit over powering but they are manageable.

I switched the Yor to the krynn AI and they were not as game ending as before, since the other races were doing better

How ever. The drengin sucked BIG TIME. 15 colonies in two years with very fast tech speed. . They invested in weapons defense and PI. They had plans to invade the arcean but since they were SO FAR inferior to them they kept putting it off and they fell behind in population and colonies.

So, this stuff needs changing. And the Drath, Korx, Korath likely need more testing so I'll do that.

It's also highly dependable on the biology of the race. Overall, I'm just not seeing it working for all races. For example, the Drengin are not known to adapt to other planets. They make other planets adapt to them instead.

How can you use something, if you don't know how it works? The Korath most certainly won't tell you how to do it.

It's intrinsic to the Drengin/Korath society. So I'd say, no.

I consider those major features of the Iconians. They are the ones with the Precursor-techs. If everyone can get them, then what makes the Iconians unique?

I don't think so. The parts may all be contemporary, but the items themselves are based on scientific knowledge that is way ahead of ours.

No, to both of these. Both are major features of the Korx. Plus, the Super Trade SB module requires the Protection Racket module, which gets unlocked by Fortified Freighters.

I don't think the Korx would trade such huge advantages away. They may love making money, but they are not stupid.

I would also add the following techs to the mix of possible candidates to steal:

Robust Hull Construction
Hull Strengthening
Creative Good
Paradise Worlds
Righteous Might
Righteous Justice
Fleet Warp Bubbles (I forgot to set these to un-tradeable/stealable earlier.)
Fleet Warp Bubbles II
Fleet Warp Bubbles III

Anyhow, I've run a few tests with the remaining races:

The Torians are doing okay overall. However, they often lack the space to build Healing Pools on Toria and other planets, because it is used up for Schools. This is pretty bad for approval, especially if the Torians built a Harvester on Toria (which often isn't the case, due to the same problem).

The Arceans and Korx haven't researched Xeno Engineering and/or Planetary Improvements several times. Also, in one game, the homeworld of the Korx looked like this in the middle of 2229:

In case you're wondering, no, the planet hadn't been conquered or culture-flipped. The Korx were far off in a corner, where no-one could reach them.

The Drath aren't researching Temples, and often don't research beyond Xeno Mysticism. In the last couple games, they haven't even researched Xeno Mysticism itself. Even when they had a good start. They do, however, have no problem going for War Profiteering (and abusing the hell out of it).

I'm not quite certain about the Thalan yet. They do seem okay, but I have the suspicion that they did better on AIP 8. That may, however, just be my imagination. I'll keep an eye on them though.

The Korath don't research Spore Weapons. At least, they didn't in any of the test-games today. It's strange though, because I had them reliably research Spore before, even when their start sucked. Maybe it is due to the bigger map, or one of the other settings. Weird.

The Krynn do okay, but they sometimes neglect Planetary Improvements in favour of their influence techs.

I think that's all of the races now.