EvilMaxWar EvilMaxWar

[POLL] Production wheel Vs. Sliders. (Alpha 1)

[POLL] Production wheel Vs. Sliders. (Alpha 1)

The production wheel seems the be a matter of debate amongst founders.

I assume most of you played plenty of GalCiv II so by now you most likely have an opinion on what system you prefer.

Since the current Wheel design is probably not final, this poll might not constitute a valid reference in the future.

I am still curious to see how the opinions are distributed so far.

Please click this link for the poll.

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=5341953ae4b0edddf8994b51

13,186 views 54 replies
Reply #26 Top

Although I know that tying social production and military production is like a rule in most 4x games, a possible solution to the double queue is to dissolve that love-hate union between those two. You see, in almost any 4x game you can buy almost magically a building with the correct amount of $$$, and galciv is not different. If we can use $$$ to rush a building, why don't we use the same idea just in another direction? Like, for example:

Social production=planet outcome * population (an oversimplification)

Now, you maybe think that it is not going to be fair or logical that a industrial planet has more problems building a structure than a moneymaking planet. It can be solved quite easily if you say that each factory reduce the cost of buildings (because it become cheaper to produce/process materials in large quantities). There are a lot of questions, pros and cons about this idea that I did not put here for sake of a small and quick argument.

 

 

Reply #27 Top

Well the poll does prove at least that on the whole people like the wheel or don't care on way or another. I kind of dislike the buy anything approach, true throwing money at it can accelerate a project but it can't make it instentaneous in real life.

 

Reply #28 Top

I also prefer the wheel.

 

Reply #29 Top

I am learning to like the wheel control.  I don't see why it couldn't also display itself as three sliders based on where you put the wheel dot.  I have seen tools do that.  I don't see why it can't also give you text blocks with a place to type in absolute numbers.  We all have different ways of looking at this. They are all valid.

 

Obviously that would be cluttered.  How about we leave the little wheel as is?  But, if you double click on the wheel, it pops up a dialogue box with a bigger wheel, (for more exact mousing across the possibilities)(my clumsy fingers would appreciate that) with matching sliders and text boxes. Everything all changing at once, with whatever uber details you want to provide and display.   However we want to manage our empire or planet, you have us covered.  I bet I could get lost for a while in some complex display like that, almost as much fun as the ship designer.

 

 

Reply #30 Top

I put "no opinion" mainly because I am not understanding it (unlike OP, I didn't play countless GC II, I had the original, but I've slept since then, LOL).  My "real answer" would be I prefer the WHEEL.  I think it a cool, space age, concept.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting erischild, reply 29


Obviously that would be cluttered.  How about we leave the little wheel as is?  But, if you double click on the wheel, it pops up a dialogue box with a bigger wheel, (for more exact mousing across the possibilities)(my clumsy fingers would appreciate that) with matching sliders and text boxes.
 
End of erischild's quote

This would be a nice compromise.

Reply #32 Top

Quoting econundrum1, reply 18

Quoting Wetballs, reply 17
If there's two things in this crappy world that I hate, it's polls and the friggin production wheel.

Sliders may not be as hip and cool as the new production wheel, but they're simpler to use when trying to get exact numbers.  I think the production wheel is clunky.  Instead of just setting the sliders to the values I want, I have to go searching for some little hex that represents those values.  And who the hell knows where that's going to be, right?

 

It's interesting I actually find the wheel really easy compared to the sliders, and not at all hard to adjust with precision. I found the old multiple sliders with locks way of doen things bordering on the broken.

I do think this is a change that some people will hate and some will love. Regardless I agree the colours need tweaking to help the color blind and that they have a fair bit of scope for tweaking the sensitivity. I guess those who will find it intuitive and easy are those who commonly use graphics packages that use a very similar way of picking colours.

Ultimatley a few people are bound to hate it regardless of tweaking and tuning, but many people will also find it a much more elegant solution than the multiple interrelated sliders.

 
End of econundrum1's quote

 

I guess if I was more used to it, the production wheel wouldn't be so bad.  But personally, I just don't see that it's much of an advantage over the sliders, so why change?  I hate change - that's why I never take the bus.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 21

So, was your hate for the production wheel strong enough to commit into voting in the dreadful poll?

 
End of EvilMaxWar's quote

 

The devil doesn't have access to Archie Comics, so he reads polls.  I don't participate in polls because I won't contribute to Satan's amusement.  It's that simple.

I would rather indulge in sweaty bone-jarring sodomy with the Production Wheel than vote in your poll.  It's just the way I was raised.

Reply #34 Top

Ok. Can you share your wisdom this time and tell us what is wrong with the poll and how it contributes to Satans amusement? And raised how? You can't storm in all super zealots and don't explain why properly.

 

DARCA. ;)

Reply #35 Top

Wetballs given you're issue with polls because of how you where raised and the wheel because it's different to the sliders you are used to. .. Do you think you might just be a little bit resistant to change  O:)

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Wetballs, reply 33



The devil doesn't have access to Archie Comics, so he reads polls.  I don't participate in polls because I won't contribute to Satan's amusement.  It's that simple.

I would rather indulge in sweaty bone-jarring sodomy with the Production Wheel than vote in your poll.  It's just the way I was raised.
End of Wetballs's quote

Reply #37 Top

Quoting iamderp, reply 11
I don't want the sliders back.  My biggest gripe with planetary production management in GC2 was that every time I increased points to one area of spending, the points were arbitrarily taken from the other two areas - usually the area I didn't want to lose points from.  The wheel is a good step, but it needs work.
End of iamderp's quote

Why didn't you lock the slider you didn't want to move?

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Wetballs, reply 33


Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 21
So, was your hate for the production wheel strong enough to commit into voting in the dreadful poll?

 

 

The devil doesn't have access to Archie Comics, so he reads polls.  I don't participate in polls because I won't contribute to Satan's amusement.  It's that simple.

I would rather indulge in sweaty bone-jarring sodomy with the Production Wheel than vote in your poll.  It's just the way I was raised.
End of Wetballs's quote

Hey Wetballs! I just asked one of my buddy to vote on the poll for you, he voted for the sliders since that is your choice. Thanks for taking part in the poll.

  }:)

Reply #39 Top

Multiple interconnected sliders suck. They are bad UI, and it's good that they're dead and not coming back.

A slider is for when you have one thing to control. When you have several, you use something suited to the task.

At some point these complaints about sliders start to feel like people want it because that's how it was before and they're used to it, not because there's any advantage to it.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 39

Multiple interconnected sliders suck. They are bad UI, and it's good that they're dead and not coming back.

A slider is for when you have one thing to control. When you have several, you use something suited to the task.

At some point these complaints about sliders start to feel like people want it because that's how it was before and they're used to it, not because there's any advantage to it.
End of Tridus's quote

 

I agree, I think it is mostly down to people being used to sliders so there is a bit of adjustment involved but once you are used to it, the wheel is a very elegant solution.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting DARCA1213, reply 34

Ok. Can you share your wisdom this time and tell us what is wrong with the poll and how it contributes to Satans amusement? And raised how? You can't storm in all super zealots and don't explain why properly.

 

DARCA.
End of DARCA1213's quote

 

The guy who used to fix our refrigerator used to tell me stories about how, in the years just prior to the start of WW2, the Nazis used to inject baby animals with bacteria scraped from polls.  Then when the animals mutated, they would mate them with their Olympic athletes in an attempt to make super soldiers.  It never worked of course, but it just goes to show that polls never did anyone any good.

Reply #42 Top

Quoting econundrum1, reply 35

Wetballs given you're issue with polls because of how you where raised and the wheel because it's different to the sliders you are used to. .. Do you think you might just be a little bit resistant to change 
End of econundrum1's quote

 

This is a semi-true story.  When I was twenty five, I participated in a poll (I don't remember what it was - something sick I'm sure) and then I forgot about it.  Then a year and a half later, almost approximately to the exact day, I suffered an inner ear infection.

The dark lord at work.

 

Yeah, when it comes to change, I always think twice.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 38

 

Hey Wetballs! I just asked one of my buddy to vote on the poll for you, he voted for the sliders since that is your choice. Thanks for taking part in the poll.

 
End of EvilMaxWar's quote

 

No good can come of this.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 39

Multiple interconnected sliders suck. They are bad UI, and it's good that they're dead and not coming back.

A slider is for when you have one thing to control. When you have several, you use something suited to the task.

At some point these complaints about sliders start to feel like people want it because that's how it was before and they're used to it, not because there's any advantage to it.
End of Tridus's quote

 

That "sliders suck" and are "bad UI" is simply one opinion.  I could easily say that "sliders rule" and they're "good UI".

Everyone has their own preferences, and I personally prefer the sliders because I think they're easier.  I don't' care if there's three of them compared to one big production ball.  There could be 40 sliders and if they were easier to use than the new method, then I'd still prefer them.

It's funny that you should mention people resisting change just because they're used to the way it used to be.  I was thinking that many people seem to be embracing the production wheel simply because it's new, not because there's any advantage to it.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting Wetballs, reply 44
Everyone has their own preferences, and I personally prefer the sliders because I think they're easier
End of Wetballs's quote

With this kind of opinions the developers only have one option: make a nice option that change between a slider or a wheel on preference. This is not one of those things that you can only have one type, right?

Reply #46 Top

Well, so far I tried to gather some actual Data about what is actually Better between Sliders VS wheel.

Ultimately one can argue it is all based on opinions and playstyle, but there are a few things so far that I can pretty much put up as Facts.

*If someone considers one of those to not be true, please object*

1.Sliders are faster and easier to precisely dial arbitrary sets of asymmetrical values.  ( ex: 22%, 34%, 44% ) 

2.Wheel is faster ( and arguably easier ) to dial Symmetrical sets of values.  ( Ex 40,40,20 ) or Polarized values  ( where one is 0% )

3.Fine tuning to exact values is harder on the wheel due to minute and precise mouse movements requirements.

4.While setting exact values on the slider is purely mechanical work ( Set first value, Lock, Set second value, Done ), doing it on the wheel requires actual thinking and some brain efforts to compute where you would need to put the dot.  ( I actually like it, I see it like a mini-game, but can understand why some people would see it as a problem )

5.If someone uses the same presets over and over in the game, The wheel becomes very efficient as you can memorize where to put the dot for each of your favorite presets and set the wheel in an instant without even thinking. With the sliders you still have to go through the steps described in no.4 and it takes longer. 

 

 

Reply #47 Top

Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 46

5.If someone uses the same presets over and over in the game, The wheel becomes very efficient as you can memorize where to put the dot for each of your favorite presets and set the wheel in an instant without even thinking. With the sliders you still have to go through the steps described in no.4 and it takes longer. 

 
End of EvilMaxWar's quote

 

Yeah this would work.  If you could put markers or waypoints, something like that, it would be a vast improvement I think.

Reply #48 Top

Wetballs your mother wanted me to tell you she accepted my marriage proposal at the south pole and we are getting married at the north pole, with Santa Claus as the priest and a Nazi as our best man. She also said she will delay the wedding so you can go to the hospital to get your head out of your ass. Lol I hope you were just joking around before...like I am now. :grin:

The wheel will improve and be larger to see and use.

those who cling to the past will always be bitter about the future, but those who make preparations in the present will make the future.

 

DARCA. ;)

Reply #49 Top

Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 46
1.Sliders are faster and easier to precisely dial arbitrary sets of asymmetrical values. ( ex: 22%, 34%, 44% )
End of EvilMaxWar's quote

This is only particularly true if the sliders can be locked. Otherwise, you're stuck fighting to get it to about the right area to start with, and the fine-tuning can be a bit of a pain.

Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 46
2.Wheel is faster ( and arguably easier ) to dial Symmetrical sets of values. ( Ex 40,40,20 ) or Polarized values ( where one is 0% )
End of EvilMaxWar's quote

I disagree with this one.  Anything on the border of the disk is easy to set, but things on the interior of the disk are more difficult to set precisely. The disk's advantage is more that it's easier to set things to approximately the value that you wanted, and approximately is usually good enough unless you're being anal. Symmetrical values are slightly easier than arbitrary values to set on the interior of the disk, true, but I wouldn't say it's particularly faster than sliders, nor would I say it's particularly easier than sliders; it's just a test of fine motor control.

 

Personally, I think that if you wanted the best of both worlds you'd put a lock on each axis of the disk and have a little +/- button next to each. Then you could set the approximate value you wanted quickly, make a fine adjustment along that axis if you cared to, lock it, and then adjust the other two axis along the arc described by the locked setting. Also nice would be a numeric entry field for each axis.

But that's mostly academic from my point of view, because I more or less use the disk as a three-state switch. If I'm building something, everything goes to production (unless I have the cash on hand to just rush whatever I want to), otherwise everything goes to wealth or research as appropriate for my current needs and the improvements built on the world in question. Given how heavily the game encourages planetary specialization and given the ability to set production distribution on a per-planet basis, I just don't really see the need to have anything but money improvements on purse worlds, labs on lab worlds, and factories on factory worlds, and even a low-class planet like Mars decked out with Markets and set to Economic Stimulus can easily pay the maintenance bills on a decent number of ships and research and factory worlds, especially if it has a decent number of tiles adjacent to one another.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting joeball123, reply 49


Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 461.Sliders are faster and easier to precisely dial arbitrary sets of asymmetrical values. ( ex: 22%, 34%, 44% )

This is only particularly true if the sliders can be locked.

End of joeball123's quote

Turns out that they can. ( talking about GalCiv II )



I disagree with this one. Things on the interior of the disk are more difficult to set precisely.
End of quote

I actually ran several rounds of test using a stop watch and symmetrical values are faster to set precisely on the wheel than with the sliders, Despite being on the interior of the disc.

Took about 6sec in average to set an exact symmetrical value set on the wheel Vs. 9sec for the sliders.