Titans way, way, way to powerful!!

they were nerfed already...nerfing them more will make them useless

here are some tips:

1. spam bombers and corvettes against titan - titan aoe cant target those types of spacecraft.

2.use support cruisers abilities or other stuff that makes titan more vulnerable or less deadly (examples : vasari turret regenration debuff,tec celio cruiser 40% dmg buff,advent repulse.yes,repulse.o_O)

3.most of the titan's efficiency comes from its abilities,which cost antimatter(AM).drain the titan from its AM and it becomes an expensive flying rock.

tec's Dunov EMP blast (need a couple of dunovs I guess)

advent radiance AM drain (again,need a couple of those)

vasari first cap(forgot name) draining AM lazors (third ability I think).....and again need a couple of those caps.

4.tricking the opponent into spending hes AM unwisely or not getting it all - makes life much easier.

by default each phase jump drains 100 AM - make him jump more

tec culture can give an AM regen bonus to its players titan - avoid it

star grav well gives AM regen bonus to anyone - dont fight at stars

Well, the Vasari titans have an ability each that still works on corvettes.

Not saying it shouldn't be nerfed, but tactics are very important when fighting an Eradica. You can't just sit there and shoot at it while letting it use Chastic Burst, not the least because when you actually kill it, its ultimate ability will allow it to delay its death and give it a chance to decimate your fleet.

As a general rule, do not bring normal frigates into a fight with a Ragnarov, Eradica, or Kultorask titan. Titan killer groups are based on corvettes, carriers, capitalships and your own titan.

It should also be noted that the Ankylon is the weakest Titan and as such generaly has considerable trouble against any other Titan on a similar level.

The history of SoaSE:

First there was Trinity: The LRM & Bomber Menace...that was followed by Rebellion Beta: Attack of the Titans and Rebellion Beta 2:  Revenge of the Vasari....but then titans were nerfed, leading to Corvette Spam: A New Hope...after corvettes were nerfed, we had Well Shit: The Bombers Strike Back, and now that titan abilities have been redone, we have Corvettes and LFs: Return of the Spamming.....

But I'm sure Disney will fix all this...

Once in a game against a Vasari AI, I was Advent Rebel, with a level 10 Eradica, I could destroy his full fleet, even his weaker Vorastra without taking any serious damage, I don't know what the hell he was doing, he could only damage 2000 shield and maybe 1000 hull, ridiculous maybe that genius was moving his fleet mindlessly in the grav well trying to reposition somewhere? Or is the Eradica that powerful? Now I feel sorry for not paying more attention, I just left the Eradica play itself as I saw there were no real threat to it, I managed my fleet on the other side of the map instead. I looked in the stats I removed almost 2000 fleet supply with only my titan in two battles that titan is the best

Another game (me and 3 AI) I was VL, my ally was VR, against Unfair Advent (doesn't matter which faction, as she had no titan just a big fleet) and a Vasari Rebel, I had a strong starbase, but small fleet because of the queued Vorastra, I was attacked by the Advent fleet and the Kultorask (I had no idea why it was there..), I thought I will get killed sooner than later, BUT they took immense losses, the titan was destroyed without causing any trouble (lev4 I guess), I was really surprised. I could easily defeat a five times bigger fleet with a titan, that game was the game that showed me how great the Orkulus is.

I just wanted to say there are circumstances where titans are invincible if handled well, and there are situations when they stand no chance against the enemy. AND I don't agree with the statement they are way too powerful, if you can get rid of their antimatter or keep their abilities disabled, they are not that difficult.

Ankylon is a waste of resources (but it's a must to build it if the enemy has a titan), weak support thing... I was defeated in a key battle against two AIs having the same amount of fleet at a neutral grav well (yeah I know it's not the best place for that titan, but my ally, an AI, was killing himself I must have helped him..), there were 1-1 titans on each side, I had an Ankylon, and one enemy had a Coronata, I just watched how my fleet and capitals went down without even causing much damage to the enemy...

And one more thing, focused frigate fire may not be the best idea against a titan, it can take brutal amounts of damage before going down, and in the long process it can use many Chastic Bursts. You MUST disable the abilities of it, with focused fire it gets max shield mitigation in one second, and if it sacrifices a stronger frigate or cruiser to repair itself you will never be able to get even it's shields down again.

I did realize that I was gong to get alot of tips of how to take down the eradica and I very much appreciate it. But thats not the point. I too realize that the eradica is not unbeatable or it wouldnt (hopefully) made it past the beta. The problem is that it is vastly overpowered.

Indefatigable91 writes about the same issue here:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/433135

For instance. The average cost per fleet supply in TEC is somwhere between 60-70 (only taking into account the credits). That means that a fleet of 2000 supply have costed approximately 120 000 credits to create. A Titan cost approx. 10 000 credit to create. That is a factor 12!! (and remeber that Indefatigable91 also had 2 fully upgrades starbases so the factor is actually far greater than 12. And also my fleet wouldnt even get the shields down, also implying that the factor is far beyond 12) I do (and this is just my opinion) think that if you have a fleet that has cost 12 times more (way more acctually) to create it should destroy the opposing fleet (of 1 titan) no matter what tactics u use, or abbillities or fleet composition!! This is of course a matter of taste but I think that the basics for space-combat should be about armor and firepower. Tactics and the use of abbillities should only come second.

So I still think that the Titans should get nerfed, and we are not talking 5-10% here, we are talking at least 50 % to get the factor below 10.

Mecha-Lenin here had some great ideas about it:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/432808

Well, looking forward to youre replies and opinions.

/N

Yeahh... Wow... That was a non-noob reasoning.. I guess...

But to fill you in with facts: I consider myself being quite new to the game, I certainly dont consider myself an expert. But that doesnt mean that my opinions shouldnt be taken seriousley especially since I consider this game being both for newbies and experts alike. So please, if you dont want to have an honest/fair discussion, refrain from posting in this thread.

Now commenting your exemple:

2000 Flaks costs approximately 750 000 and 500 Heavy cruisers cost 250 000.. Thats a factor 3... Now if u were to use a factor 12 as I stated the correct ratio of flak vs Hc (as u would use as an exemple) would be 16 (not 4 as in youre exemple)... I dont now if 16 flaks beats one Hc (but I think it does). And still, my point is, that even though the Hcs might be better than flaks in damage delaing to frigettes, I still consider there to be limit to just how many flaks it is reasonable for 1 Hc to take down.

No, but if you don't use the tactics that are intended to counter them, how are you supposed to know how over powered the Eradica really is? Seriously, try using a pair of mid level Kortuls and a Jarrasul or something, that's 150 fleet supply and I'd bet they'd eventually take out an Eradica 1v1 (might have to retreat the Jarrasul because it can't heal itself).

The last patch saw a 33% increase to the Eradica's chastic burst cooldown time, which deals the vast majority of damage to frigates, as well as reducing its weapons damage a little. I think they also need to nerf it's ultimate ability because its just as strong as it was before but now it starts kicking in before it gets destroyed.

Both of the threads you linked were created before the recent accross the board nerf to titan AoE and the last 2 rounds of nerfs to the Eradica.

Hate o say it, but the other posters are right, despite some of them having an unfortunate condescending manner.

Titans like everything else in the game have things they counter and things that counter them.

by it's basic design, standard combat frigates are not supposed to be an efficient strategy against a high level eradica.  It's entire kit is built around doing large amounts of AoE damage that shreds frigates.  

Are we seriously still debating whether titans are OP or not?

No, but it sounds like the OP thinks they are as OP as they were when the beta came out. Some of them could use nerfs but not that badly.

Titans are not op. They cost a huge amount to build, and need to level up to be efficent.

If I'm going eco and I'm at the stage where I'm ready to invest in something "big", there are much better things to do that build a titan. As TEC loyalist, a novalith costs 6000 credits, just over half that of a titan, plus research (2x tier 6). THis is a much better investment; as my opponent is building a titan, I'm building a novalith, which I can use to destroy his home planet and win a capital victory. His titan might destroy my fleet, but who cares? I've won.

Well, a human player will get axillary government to prevent that, and you'll need two novaliths firing in quick succession to take it out quickly. But against the AI that's quite an effective, if cheap, way to win.

Titans are overpowered in the very late game - but this is by design, not an oversight by the developers.  They are designed to break deadlocks and counter large frigate fleets.  You really have to counter them with bombers, capital ships, and your own Titan.

That said, the Eradica is in a league of its own when it comes to very late game overpoweredness.  Unyielding Will was changed in 1.4 to starting kicking in once the Eradica takes signicant hull damage - boosting ability cooldown rates and greatly increasing antimatter regeneration.  This makes it nearly impossible to drain its antimatter or stop it from using abilities.  (In fact, the only thing I have seen that stops it is Disrupter Nanites on the Vasari missile turrets.)

When you combine this with Purification (and a couple of antimatter Titan upgrades), a heavily damaged Eradica can "eat" one of its own frigates to heal itself every 5 seconds.  Depending on the frigate, this can work out to 300 - 500 points of repair (hull and shields) every second.  The only way it can be stopped is to first kill all its accompanying frigates.  And even this can be problematic as the AR have a tech that allows them to resurrect a portion of the enemy frigates that die in battle.  Eradica kills enemy frigates with Chastic Burst, frigates come back to life owned by AR, Eradica eats resurrected frigates, repeat.  It is a very powerful combo.

I suspect this is what happened in the game you described.

First of all thanks for taking your time to reply. I didnt realize the threds were outdated. But then, I still think the Titans are overpowered..

I realize that there are better or worse way of countering any given fleet. But too me there is a limit to just how bad a bad counter can be. Some additional examples (using the factor 12 stated above)

* One LRF beating 11 Kobolts (275 Credits vs. 3300 Credits) - The Kobolt is a wrong counter to an LRF, but its not that bad that you would need at least 11 of them to take down one LRF. In that case I would consider the LRF being overpowered.

* One capital ship beating 130 LRF (3000 Credits vs 36 000 Credits) - I think (not sure though, but its just an exemple) the LRF is a bad counter to a capital ship, but if a capital ship could take down 130 LRF, I would consider it overpowered.

* One Titan beating a fleet worth 120 000 (10 000 Credits vs. 120 000 Credits) - Even though the opposing fleet might be the wrong counter I still consider it to be overpowered.

But the bottom line is this: Use the correct counter to beat the Titan. If one were to use the "wrong" counter you need an X large fleet. And the value of X is just a matter of taste.

Thanks for the reply. I think that is exactly what happend to my fleet. Anyway, I suppose as I wrote above, its just a matter of taste to how powerfull you want the Titans to be.

Sincerely

/N

A fair point on cost.  But I'm apt to believe there's one major oversight:

You can only build 1 titan.  Titans are the only real counter to large numbers of combat frigates.  if yous ay they can only counter a comparable cost of frigates, suddenly the 1 titan limit means that your example of 120k woth of LRF have no counter- after all their designated counter can't be mass produced beyond the initial unit.

Of course it would be horrible if it were as simple as "pay 12k, counter any number of friogates".  Fortunately there are addditional costs not reflected in raw credt/metal/crystal costs.  You're forgetting 2 extra(and in this case deeply related) resources involved: time and experience.

A titan will only be high enough level to deal with the 120k fleet if it is high level, and to be high enough level it generally has to have been rushed out early and allowed to grow first.  That's a very significant restraint as in the early game before the titan grows when money is tight, trying to save up for a titan while the opponent fleets up can be a death sentence.  Even if the titan comes out in time, an conventional fleet will easily roll a level 1 titan.

And frankly if the opponent builds a titan that early you have no real excuse for having invested 120k in a LRF fleet(you should have realized the opponent is rushing a titan within the first 10k spent).  if the opponent's strategy is so heavily invested in a titan it's basic tactics to focus your fleet on the units adept at countering the titan: corvettes & carriers.

Yes, a titan that has been allowed to grow is a complete gamechanger in the late game.  But frankly rushing out said titan tend to create a corresponding vulnerability in the early game.  A skill opponent can take advantage of that weakness to end the game before the titan is level 8-10.

One final thing to take into account is that remember that the revive cost & time of titans scales up with level.  You get it relatively cheap the first time, but if a high level titan gets killed it can cost as much as twice as much as the original investment to rebuild(and twice as long to rebuild, creating a longer period of vulnerability then having lost some frigates).

While I certainly see where you're coming from, I'm still firmly of the opinion that titans as a whole are plenty balanced.  There are a few titans specifically that could use a bit more balancing(such as the Vasari titans having an AoE that still hit corvettes), but the balancing that remains I think is specific to certain titans rather then a product of titans in general being too powerful. 

I'd like to conclude by saying sorry about some of the more trollinh responses you've gotten; while I may disagree with your point of view, you've been entirely reasonable and civil through this debate- politeness which is all too often in short supply in topics as heated as balance discussion.

Possibly. But it depends on your opponent's economy. If they happen to have a few thousand credits in their pocket, as well as starbases and aux gov researched, and tehy already have a heavy constructer build and ready on their home planet, then yes. But all of this is unlikely in the early game. Novaliths are reasonably quick to build compared to the time it takes to reasearch and build all that stuff, so chances are you'll have your novaliths firing before their planet is protected. Unless they've upgraded their home planet's health (which they probably wouldn't think to do), 2 hits will kill it (I'm not sure whether 2 hits would do the job if the health was upgraded, but even so, you could always fire them again ).

And of course, even if they're home planet is protected, you can still seriously hurt their economy until they have the money to do that with all of their planets. 12k well spent, imo.

The big oversight you had is that you allowed the Titan to reach level 10 especially an Eradica one.

Again as said before having a titan get to its late game is pretty much unstoppable by design especially if it's a human player owning it.

Pretty much the biggest counter to any Titan is to kill it before it becomes such a huge treat.

Actually my fleet was a combination of several ship types, not just LRF, but that doesnt matter for the case of the discussion.

And I must also clarify that I don´t think they should be able to just counter an equivalent cost, but a greater. To be worth the research time and investment they must be able to counter a greater cost-ratio than just 1:1 (If all ships were only able to beat ships worth the same amount of money, they would in practice be the same type of ships and researching new ship types would be pointless), say 1:3 (just making the number up, no real reason behind it). And then you have proper fleet composition amounting the ratio to say 1:4. And then you have tactics and skillful micromanagement which perhaps will increase the ratio even further, say 1:5.

Aahhh... When I first made my original post I had an itching feeling that it was premature, knowing that I left out experience. My point of view stated above requires, as you well pointed out a, a lvl 10 Eradica. Now if you have a level 10 Eradica the factor is somewhere around 12 . But of course if you have a lvl 1 Eradica the factor is not 12 but probably way below 5 (just guessing). So although I realize that experience matters, I don't know to what extent just yet.

Kind of noticed it...

Thanks for your reply.

/N

It's also worth pointing out that when you successfully destroy a titan that's leveled up past level 1, its cost and build time will increase. In practice this means that while the first titan is 9500 credits etc., to rebuild it at level 10 it might cost around twice as much. So in the context of a long game where both sides will manage to destroy the others titan multiple times, the 9500 credit cost is not the best number to use.

The extra capitalship research to field a titan and the factory cost (you can disregard the factory cost on frigates because you build so many and the added cost on each ship quickly becomes almost nothing. You only ever have 1 titan, so the factory cost only produces 1 ship).

I guess /N isn't code for 

However, I don't think that Titans need across the board nerfing. Mostly just the eradica and the antimatter+nom nom nom frigate combo. In fact, the Ankylon still needs a boost IMHO.

-Lord Brony