Where's your proof?  Where's your support?  You have none!  You just make blanket statements...I actually determined the ratio of metal to crystal one can expect to earn, and I compared that to the metal/crystal ratios of both Illuminators and Defense Vessels....you have done nothing but disagree with everything I say...it's not about whether I'm actually right or wrong, it's all about RiddleKing having to troll Seleuceia cause, hey, it's fun and it's garnering more forum activity than anything else...

Let us now do some basic math...the general conversion ratio for credit to resource is 4.5 credits per 1 metal/crystal, a number that Darvin used when he was active and what I have chosen to use...you don't like it, make a case for a different number...

Illuminator costs 380 credits, 60 metal, and 55 crystal...that turns out to be 380 + (60 + 55) x 4.5 = 897.5

Now we divide that by the supply cost and find that the Illuminator costs 897.5 / 6 = 149.6 per fleet supply....

Defense Vessel costs 360 credits, 40 metal, and 20 crystal...that turns out to be 360 + (40 + 20) x 4.5 = 630

Now divide that by the supply cost and we find that the Defense vessel costs 630 / 4 = 157.6 per fleet supply...

I stand by my original statement (which you quoted) that defense vessels are more expensive per fleet supply than illuminators...

Let us do some more math...

Illuminators cost 60 metal and 55 crystal...60 / 55 yields a metal-to-crystal ratio of 1.09...

Defense vessels cost 40 metal and 20 crystal...40 / 20 yields a metal-to-crystal ratio of 2.00...thus, I call it metal heavy, because I was concerned with the ratio...

I have 1) shown that metal production does not grossly exceed crystal production like you have argued and 2) stated that in the early game most black market dealings are sales of resources, and as such the higher crystal cost (per fleet supply) exhibited by Illuminators is a non-issue...

Those times are the total number of seconds needed to produce 120 fleet supply of that unit with 1 factory...you can think of it as the equivalent to "manhours"...the number of factories is irrelevant, add in another factory and you still will be amassing defense vessels 80% slower than Illuminators...

The Illuminator hard counters LFs, the defense vessel hard counters Corvettes...however, the Illuminator stands up to its own counters (corvettes and flak) much better than the defense vessel stands up to its hard counter (LFs)...additionally, the illuminator builds faster and costs less overall per fleet supply...your whole crystal argument is just bogus, it does not apply to the early game where you are mostly selling resources...

I have continually stated that illuminators and defense vessels compliment each other nicely...my argument was not "ILLUMINATORS ARE BETTER THAN DEFENSE VESSELS", but that illuminators fair significantly better against their counters than the other two LRFs...you chimed in with how defense vessels are cheaper and easier to "roll out", which I have shown is both wrong and irrelevant to my original argument anyway...

RiddleKing actually did make this exact argument...I believe his claim was that 11 Defense Vessels can defeat 15 Illuminators, a claim that I easily disproved (though intuition was enough to suggest it was wrong)...of course, RiddleKing would never admit he just made up those numbers, much less admit they are wrong...and yet he accuses me of getting numbers out of thin air...

Ekko and Bilun have made very reasonable arguements and have expressed their feelings in regards to the viability of early illuminators...I don't agree with them, but I respect their opinions because they have a sense of logic and understanding of the game...you on the other hand have resorted entirely to bashing, mixing it in with obviously wrong statements (11 flak vs. 15 illuminators, seriously?)...

@ Ekko, who's thoughtful responses I appreciate...

I think you and others are exagerrating the difficulty in getting three military labs, so let me describe my typical start as Advent that has lead me to my opinion, and we can go from there...

I scout planets touching my HW to get a sense of what I need to do for colonization and labs...I also start with a progenitor...the following outline is general, and is prone to changes depending on the situation...I just use it to show how I normally get my 3 mil labs and 2 civ labs...

1.  If HW connects to only one asteroid/moon and only other viable nearby colonizables are ice/volcanic, then I go one mil lab and one civ lab on my HW...after progenitor is complete, I scuttle cap ship factory and build 2nd civ lab...the 1 mil lab is for corvettes, which I use to aid in expansion (deal with krosovs and LRMs)...once 2nd civ lab is built, I get appropriate colonization tech...my 2nd mil lab goes on asteroid/moon, and 3rd mil lab goes on the newly colonized ice/volcanic...I have 3 mil labs and 2 civ labs, with no logistic upgrades...

2.  If HW connects to only one asteroid/moon but there is another viable nearby colonizable that isn't ice/volcanic (like a desert/terran with reasonable militia), then I go 2 mil labs on HW...after progenitor is complete, I scuttle cap ship factory and build 1 civ lab...2nd civ lab goes on asteroid/moon, 3rd mil lab goes on newly colonized desert/terran...I have 3 mil labs and 2 civ labs, with no logistic upgrades...

3.  If HW connects to multiple asteroids/moons, then I go 2 mil labs on HW...after progenitor is complete, I scuttle cap ship factory...I will build a 3rd lab on HW, but it depends on what is nearby...if I find a nice string of asteroids, moons, or terran/deserts with reasonable militias leading towards my enemy, I may just ignore the ice/volcanic and not even bother with civ labs on HW...usually though, my 3rd lab on HW is civ, and I'll put 1 civ lab on one asteroid/moon and 1 mil lab on the other asteroid/moon...even if I don't need the colonization techs, getting culture ain't a bad economic boost to have when I get the chance...I have 3 mil labs and 2 civ labs, with no logistic upgrades...

There are some other guidelines I follow...if I have a choice, I try to put military labs on rear worlds so I have access to my prototypes even if I lose planets...also, if for whatever reason I find myself 3 jumps or less from an enemy, I may avoid labs on that frontline planet if I can, but that's more to get factories and repair bays up faster, not necessarily because of logistics...

You make a valid point that extra labs may affect your ability to get multiple factories, however I don't find that to be much of an issue in most games...in the case of an asteroid/moon, you must get the logistic upgrade in order to have 2 factories, regardless of whether you build a lab there or not...in the case of a terran/desert, it doesn't matter since they have at least 3 slots to begin with...it's only with ice/volcanics where it might be an issue, and even then two conditions would need to be met before it'd be a real problem: 1) the ice/volcanic is the frontline world and 2) you can't get 2 asteroids/moons...it happens, but it's not likely...

Anyway, from my experience the extra lab really does not increase the need for logistic upgrades in most situations...I may delay my 3rd lab in favor of getting factories/repair bays up faster, but asteroids/moons always need that upgrade to get 2 factories independent of what else you put there (or don't put there)...terran/deserts aren't an issue since they start with 3 slots, and ice/volcanics are only potential problems if you can't get 2 asteroids/moons...

Basically, from my strategy illuminators are only costing me an extra lab, and the prototype tech is a little more expensive than a tier 2 (like LRM)...no need for extra logistic upgrades except in extreme situations (and those would be the situations to not try and get illuminators)...

One possible issue with my strategy is that you must upgrade the logistics of the HW in order to build a culture center there, but by the time I'm actually ready to get culture I can afford the logistic upgrade no problem...plus, I usually use that 6th slot on the HW for another factory or another mil lab, depending on how things are going...so getting that upgrade again would happen regardless of whether I rush 2 or rush 3 mil labs...

That's how I do things...not saying it's perfect, but it works for me...spamming illuminators after your initial corvette/LF/flak skirmishing is not a "default goto" strategy, but I always like having the option...you definitely see LFs in large numbers quite frequently because of the common flak build ups, and Illuminators are great to have...

It also surprises me that you are trying to use carriers so early in the game...what are you building them for exactly?  Early game has tons of flak, corvettes, and LFs, all of which heavily counter carriers in some manner...furthermore, the build time on the carrier + the build time on the squadron makes it a rather rough unit to try and use early game, it just takes too long to get your firepower in the fast pace rushing that goes on...I won't say they don't have their place (good for dealing with Vasari SB rushes on HW I suppose) but I just can't see myself prefering those over illuminators that early in the game...

I'll agree you can get three military labs up and go the earlier illuminator route in some circumstances, but I still don't feel it is going to fit into the flow of most games without delaying you enough to get stomped. I still feel like it relies on not being pressed enough early on. I forgot about scuttling the capital ship factory for the space though. My main disagreement was much less on whether it is possible to use them in some cases (I'm sure it is, just less so than most other things), and more to do with them needing to be nerfed due to extra resilience to corvettes than other LRFs - I see this is as a design feature that compensates for their other drawbacks without affecting overall game balance at all.

Anyway, the carrier part is also not standard but more in response to what I see or where I am in the game - I don't get them early game generally, I meant more that, at still just 2 labs, it's a very attractive option to switch to instead of, say illuminators, once you've got your defense vessels, LFs, and corvettes fleet out since they remain useful really well into the late game. They're great to get earlier vs. Vasari I find though, who love their SBs and LRFs. Actually, I'd say I often transition to carriers as soon as the game lets me. Especially if I"m in a spot where I know I won't be teching to a Titan any time soon. They're just too good against too many different targets to pass on - Advent ones especially are amazing, if costly. They take forever to kill, sit on the edge of the grav well to escape if needed, and basically don't bleed you at all the way other frigates/HCs would in battle.

I don't like it and im making a case about it.

Your throwing us Darvin's number like hes god.

What really caught my attention was how poorly corvettes performed Illuminators on a per fleet supply basis relative to the other hard counters (including other corvette vs. LRF match ups)...when the Vasari corvettes outright lost, that really threw a red flag for me...on a per cost basis, the counter works, but I think therein lies a problem...as the game progresses, per fleet supply strength becomes more important and per cost strength becomes less important, and I think this is one fundamental reason why Corvettes (and probably LFs) really wane in their usefulness late game...this isn't the single, best way to rememdy that problem, it's just one small change that I think needs to be done and will easily be overlooked...

It seems that the devs will be adding a new weapontype for Corvettes, but there has been no indication of a new armortype...the next update (whatever it does) will incorporate the new weapontype and may even make some stat changes to corvettes...I just think that the anti-medium damage table values could easily be overlooked and their excellent value against very light armor will still persist even after the next update, which is why I brought up the issue...

So, why exactly is it a problem that Illuminators do better vs corvettes than other LRMs?  Last I checked they cost an extra tier of research, are more expensive, and have better base stats than the other factions' LRMs.  Maybe they're supposed to be that way?

and with just that-- dash ends the topic  so we can all pack our bags and go play with illums.

..

Quick note: Illums are not good vs Titans with their focus fire limitations. I really wish they were but they aint which is why i truly believe in Defense vessel + Crusaders + Guardian Fleets to end the game.

Do you really not build any carriers?

I do- you only need like 5 or 7 with advent: 21 squads or more with caps, titans and i let the crusaders do the rest of the heavy armor punching

mass bombers will still beat that comp, unless you mix more. And even then a matched fleet in size would also probably win when more bomber heavy with either flak or fighters in the mix.

hmm best response in this thread

Eco spot.

Better to try to out-Eco your opponent who also has an Eco spot or let your teammates fend for themselves and rush through the star to destroy him?

Out eco any other eco spot and feed resources to your teammates in need. This is the point of it - to buff your teammates and enable them to win their fights. Letting your teammates fend for themselves is not a good idea because they may be in a 2v1 situation and will likely be knocked out before you get a chance to build up a fleet yourself.  Later on, once you have a healthy economy running, start building your own fleet. You're in a unique position to build whatever fleet composition you want based on what you've noticed the enemies doing so far - but generally getting a Titan out with a supporting fleet (usually carrier heavy) is the first step and then starting to invade some border worlds.

^^ Concur.....

Early feed is invaluable...as eco, I generally start feeding as soon as I have both asteroid/moons near my HW colonized, and it makes a world of difference if used well by your teammates...

That being said, getting 40-60 LFs or 50-80 Corvettes as eco only requires 1-2 fleet upgrades, maybe 1 mil lab, and makes for an awesome support to help a frontliner....with that many frigates, any bomber spam or fresh titan is going to be really hosed, and fleeting up at the right time and doing proper raids can actually help more than feeding a frontliner...

Seen it done by multiiple people and by all 3 races, and it is rather effective when you can't count on a certain frontliner to use the feed too well....