MODDING: Elemental vs The Rest

from Elemental Forums

Here's the report card, as I would have done it, for *right now*

I'd have responded to the thread comparing these, but this really generalized feedback on the quality of the modding. I have very different opinions on the quality of each of these games; but that's for another time

 

NOW:

 

 

Civilization V:

Toolset: B (Workable toolset. Some idiosyncracies)
Scripting: B+ (solid scripting. Learning curve, but very workable.)
Data:  A+ (best possible data. XML translated into a SQL database. Easy to make modifications that don't break other modifications. Powerful powerful syntax )
Graphics: B (good base graphics. Free, complete model included, challenging animation to overcome)
Ease of use: C+ (Easy to use, but getting results takes time and comes with a learning curve. Not enough wizards)
Flexibility: B+ (VERY flexible. Many types of games are possible within the confines of TBS)
Documentation: C+ (Needs a lot more work here. Room for improvement. Community contribution was necessary)
Distribution:  P (there are mechanisms of distribution, but they're largely the result of fan activity. Good design makes transfer easy)

Elemental: War of Magic:

Toolset: A (Hyperfriendly toolset, easy to make new maps)
Scripting: D- (scripting appears limited to stacking XML lists in a frustrating, coldfusion-like mashup)
Data:  B- (good xml, good portability, not easy to read)
Graphics: B (good base graphics. challenging animation to overcome. Free Maya model bumps this up to a B)
Ease of use: B+ (easy to get results)
Flexibility: C- (You cannot change or work around the base gameplay at all. You can rebalance stats, but it'll always be elemental)
Documentation: C (Needs a lot more work here. Room for improvement.)
Distribution:  C  (it's workable, in the context of the limited fan content available. Good points for downloading in game, site database)


Fallout: New Vegas:

Toolset: C+ (Unfriendly toolset, texturing area is rough, slow, resource-hog yet powerful)
Scripting: C+ (scripting not powerful enough. Fans have extended the language, using the fan NVSE dlls would bump this to a B)
Data:  C+ (mostly lists. Good readability, poor mechanisms for working with them)
Graphics: B (The graphics are easy to work with due to widespread documentation and community expertise)
Ease of use: C (Not easy to get results, difficult to use)
Flexibility: C+ (Can be modified and physics engine allows for interesting developments, including a micro-RTS)
Documentation: C+ (Documentation was much better for previous title.)
Distribution: D (poor distribution mechanism. Only made tolerable by fan tools)

 

 

Next on my list to evaluate is Starcraft II. I don't have time to mod more than one title at a time.

elemental
18,662 views 17 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Note: you're free to disagree with me, but I'd rather hear what you think and why you think it than hear about how I'm all wrong because X.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Actually, there IS a free model out there in the modding pack released by Stardock. It's Maya, however. So your statement is true, but just figured I would let you know there IS a free model.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Civ5 has much better documentation in my opinion (than elemental). (didn't jon schafer write it, even? hah)

I think animation will always be a hurdle to overcome, at least I find it quite difficult to work with.

Personally I think Elemental's xml data is easier to read than Civ5s, due to the back to back referencing in Civ5 (add building to research, add building instead of elemental's which does it in one step). Note I'm just talking about understanding the content here, Civ5 still wins out due to the db approach.

Ultimately the lack of scripting and the lack of flexibility makes Elemental a very uninteresting choice for modders.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Ultimately the lack of scripting and the lack of flexibility makes Elemental a very uninteresting choice for modders.
End of quote

 

That's what I've run into. I'll buy Fallen Enchantress if it can do what I need.


RE: Civilization documentation was a copy paste error on my part. I mean to say: B (very good, missed some key elements that community had to "discover" through trial and error. see models)

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I have to make one HUGE request: bring back the mod directories. The idea of modular modding is great and all, so leave it in. But why oh why had the mod-directory to go? For Total Conversions it is so much easier to have an isolated xml base.

Just look over at Civ5 - it is such a mess and work to disable all the stuff that's in there to setup a blank modding base to get you going.

 

So overall it would ease the creation of TCs and also would make it easy to create Mod-Mods.

 

EDIT: actually I've some more requests:

1. I want to be able to define item categories and set how much of it a unit (be it hero, soldier-unit, creature or whatever) can wear. For example: Definition of item category: Backpack. Then max number of Backpacks worn on all units: 1

 

2. I also would love to be able to define unit categories and also items that grant item categories. So for example: Humans start with unit category "Human". If the players equips his human soldiers with bows they receive unit category "Archer". Should thy also get a horse to ride on they also become "Cavalry". All those Categories are linked together. Now we can also define Weapon/Attack/Spellboni against certain unit categories. Please allow boolean logic. Like Damage Bonus against: "Cavalry" OR "Archer" NOT "Dwarf"

 

3. Provide support for moddable talent/promotion-trees (comparable with Diablo2+, AOW, Civ4+) also not just for heros, but make it possible for the modder to add it the every creature he likes it to. Also grant the possibility that certain Items grant access to skill-trees when worn. For example: the holy medal of Empire grants the access to the skill tree: "Empires Choosen", or for example the Thief-Hero Kazilian starts with access to the Rogue-Skilltree. The normal stats should either be able to be auto-leveled or disabled altogether. Of course if the modder so wish he can still use the old stat system as it is now or link it like: Skill "Dodge" needs a minimum Level of 4 and minimum Dexterity of 19. Just as an example.

 

 4. Ability-Effect Triggers. We need special triggers to call spell/ability effects. The ones I have in mind are: On attack (attack-animation is sufficient as trigger), On hit sth (you have to attack and actually hit it, but it's not necessary to damage the target), On damage sth (you have to attack and damage the target to trigger), being attacked (you have to be target by an enemy, you don't have be hit at all), beeing hit, beeing damaged

 

5. Ability and Spellchargers: please add forms of charges. Like ability "Mighty Blow" can be used 4x times a battle. Or "Battle Cry" can used without limit but with a 3 battle rounds cooldown. Also let certain abilities / spells cost resources. Like for example "Rune-Shaping" costs 4 Metal to use.

 

 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Xadie, reply 5
I have to make one HUGE request: bring back the mod directories. The idea of modular modding is great and all, so leave it in. But why oh why had the mod-directory to go? For Total Conversions it is so much easier to have an isolated xml base.

Just look over at Civ5 - it is such a mess and work to disable all the stuff that's in there to setup a blank modding base to get you going. 

 

So overall it would ease the creation of TCs and also would make it easy to create Mod-Mods.

 
End of Xadie's quote

With the new file system for mods they implemented in the Dec patch, this isn't an issue anymore.  In modbuddy just specify your own full XML file to be exclusive which over-writes the default XML file when it loads.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh that's good to hear. After the release of Civ5 I haven't bothered with modding / playing Elemental so that slipped past me.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

1. I want to be able to define item categories and set how much of it a unit (be it hero, soldier-unit, creature or whatever) can wear. For example: Definition of item category: Backpack. Then max number of Backpacks worn on all units: 1
End of quote

 

I'd go further: the ability to change the game mechanic such that I don't need a predefined switch to flip or data to change, I can actually go right in there and write whole new item categories, rework the script to support pulling the data from XML, and adding in my own XML fields.

If we could do that, then I or someone else would just release a script pack to all mod developers that had this kind of flexibility.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

With good support of a scripting language like Python oder LUA not that much of a problem. But it costs a lot of resources that way. So many mods in Civ 4 run so slow because of extensive loops via Phyton. The more is embedded straight into the code and accessed via XML as "switch flipper" - the faster and more stable will modifications be.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Xadie, reply 9
With good support of a scripting language like Python oder LUA not that much of a problem. But it costs a lot of resources that way. So many mods in Civ 4 run so slow because of extensive loops via Phyton. The more is embedded straight into the code and accessed via XML as "switch flipper" - the faster and more stable will modifications be.
End of Xadie's quote

 

And the more limited your options will be.

Dozens of triple AAA titles use Lua without slowing down the game to accomplish mission scripting. A lot of people advance the "don't give fans X tool because they might shoot themselves in the foot and make a crappy mod," and I tend not to buy the games of people who make that claim.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 3
Civ5 has much better documentation in my opinion (than elemental). (didn't jon schafer write it, even? hah)
End of Heavenfall's quote

If you are talking about the Modders Guide for Civilization V, I wrote it.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Like, whatever. But yeah, that was what I was talking about.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top
  Then for what its worth that wasn't Firaxis delivered content, it was community written,
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Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks, by the way, for writing it. Your efforts are legend. I don't think I would have made a lot of progress without it.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TCores, reply 10

And the more limited your options will be.

Dozens of triple AAA titles use Lua without slowing down the game to accomplish mission scripting. A lot of people advance the "don't give fans X tool because they might shoot themselves in the foot and make a crappy mod," and I tend not to buy the games of people who make that claim.
End of TCores's quote

I haven't said that one has to exclude the other. You can have both - easy to use tools and tools for the ambitious. Doesn't has to be an either/or.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Then we agree, Xadie.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TCores, reply 10

And the more limited your options will be.

Dozens of triple AAA titles use Lua without slowing down the game to accomplish mission scripting. A lot of people advance the "don't give fans X tool because they might shoot themselves in the foot and make a crappy mod," and I tend not to buy the games of people who make that claim.
End of TCores's quote

Any modding ability worth anything has the ability to lead to bad mods. There's mods for WoW that slow the game down, are buggy, and cause general weirdness.

There's also mods that are so good that they became something other games had to include in the stock UI to keep up with what players demand in a modern game. There's mods that fixed Blizzard oversights and made some kinds of content realistically doable before Blizzard could get around to fixing it (or in the case of the one I wrote, fixing a simple annoyance).

Most importantly, players have a lot more options to find what suits them and makes the game fun for them. Powerful tools and an active community do that, while weak tools aren't really worth the effort to create.