Single player AI alliance lameness

from Sins Forums
Thought I'd try single player again with the option to save the game and all. So I started a rather large map unlocked FFA with 5 hard AI and myself.

Very good beginning with some skirmishes with the closest two factions. I manage to raid one while keeping the other at bay and develop my empire at the same time. Then two more factions attack me through the sun from above. Fighting on four fronts is simply impossible and I lose two colonies after their defenses go down. But this is not where it ends. The fifth race merrily joins in.

Turns out ALL five AI ally with eachother and continue to systematically pound my planets until finally destroying my homeworld. They never fight eachother and the missions I manage to complete for my chosen allies to be make no difference whatsoever.

I feel like I just wasted three hours of my life. If I want to play 5 on 1 I'll be sure to check all the AI's on the same team. If I want to play a fair FFA I expect the AI's to do something else besides going all out to eliminate the human player before any other considerations.

/steaming
25,979 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
/steaming
End of quote


I'll take black tea, please.

-------------

Honestly, it sounds like you had some bad luck.

When doing a FFA, the easiest way to ally is to do the early missions of giving credits and resources as fast as possible. That way I'm usually able to ally with at least one AI after about 15min game time.

Just try again. :HOT:
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I'll back that up. In 1.4 medium maps against 4-5 hard unlocked AI, unless you're *really good*, you pretty much have to perform missions to gain allies early.

Here's the key: when one of the AI's is ceasefiring with you, I think it means that it *IS NOT* ceasefiring with at least one other empire (because then it would have no enemies at all). So that causes them to fight against themselves instead of swarming you.

I've also experienced the swarm(TM) and it ain't fun. Getting a single ally early allowed me to concentrate my efforts and win the game.

-- Retro
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I absolutely agree with the above two posters.

In that kind of situation, you need friends now... not later. Hopefully, your new found friend is your next door neighbor. You can wait a while before you tell him his cat is digging up your precious tulip garden. :)


Regards,

WC
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
i agree with all the above, another thing i like to do a little later on that can makes things easier on bigger maps. I tend to ally myself with the strongest faction in my system, that way instead of having to worry about the powerhouse across the way, i can get him to do the dirty work like defend wormholes, while i take out our weaker neighbors.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
If you set the teams to "locked" won't they stay on FFA rather than allying? Or did you still want the option of allying yourself with a comp team?
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Certainly, but setting teams to "locked" removes a big chunk of the gameplay and really changes the nature of the game. It's FUN when you blast a neighbour's fleet to smithereens only to have them be your best friend an hour later because they gave you a couple missions at the other end of your empire that you succeeded in. Diplomacy can be a big part of the game, and locking teams makes it entirely moot.

-- Retro
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
haven't had any problems with AIs so far, actually I found it too nice.

The game before my current one has been 3 unlocked teams at start: me+TEC-AI, 2xVas-AI, 2xAdv-AI, AIs all at hard.

Sure, I got quite a few treates broken, but more often enough they immediately accepted a new offer for ceasefire and stuff. found that kinda stupid tbh.

And yes, try to do easy missions whenever you can, so you can afford to pass on missions that are hard to achieve.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I have a hunch it has something to do with being the nr. 1 empire in all three aspects but Im not sure.

But it was ludicrous. So basically: unless you feed some of the AI credits and/or resources early game you will have to fight them ALL alone?

I'm sticking with multiplayer (after it's stable enough to actually play *sigh*)
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
I have a hunch it has something to do with being the nr. 1 empire in all three aspects but Im not sure.
End of quote


Yes, it does. The harder AI difficulties recognize the #1 threat and tend to gang up to try and take it out. Sometimes that's you, sometimes it isn't. They don't actually break existing alliances unless you fall below the min happiness threshold, so working up to cease fires and peace treaties early pays off as you grow in power. Alternatively, I've had AIs refuse cease fires even at 60% happiness, so your best best is really to get them set up early!
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Herodias - try that same map in FFA. :)

It's really a different story when you have 3x2 Hard-teams because at least one of the factions will soak up some of the damage that would otherwise get pointed directly at you. There's a huge difference between a game where you don't chase down some peace in a 2 vs 4 (where you are effectively facing 2 other players yourself) and 1 vs 4 (where you are facing 3) or, worse, 1 vs 6.

And the comment about strongest garnering the most attention from the AI is very, very true. Just to test it, start a 10-player FFA as TEC and immediately go nuts with Trade Stations to dominate the economy. :D

But it was ludicrous. So basically: unless you feed some of the AI credits and/or resources early game you will have to fight them ALL alone?
End of quote
Nothing ludicrous about it. This is a 4X game, not a "pure" RTS which is governed solely by economic and military efficiency. Players with zero diplomacy skills will generally not thrive as well as players that understand the negotiations model.

-- Retro
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Nothing ludicrous about it. This is a 4X game, not a "pure" RTS which is governed solely by economic and military efficiency. Players with zero diplomacy skills will generally not thrive as well as players that understand the negotiations model.-- Retro
End of quote

Diplomacy being handing over crystal when they demand it.

5 AI's ganging up on someone that has a slight lead and distant empires sailing across the map just to wipe you out isn't diplomacy, it's genocide. A more sensible approach would be to try to actually ally with the more powerful empire, not leaving your flank unprotected. But it seems the AI have a code of honour between themselves.

Funny that the same empires that would go to such extreme lengths to utterly destroy someone far far away are happy and peaceful after you give them 2000 credits.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
So where I've seen this the worst is in the Gateway scenario. So far I've won almost all scenarios on "Hard - Random" except Gateway, despite about. But Gateway has beaten me every time. I've tried multiple ways (trying to keep Gateway, not trying to keep Gateway.) Eventually the games ends the same way -- every other civilization attacking me at once. In my latest attempt I actually watched as they built up an armada -- every other civilization -- in an adjoining planet. All of them together not fighting each other but just waiting to attack me. Frustrating.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Ya, seen this more than enough on the "Gateway" map...
Even a capped supply, well developed fleet just can't handle the coordinated full force of atleast 4 other nations.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Hi guys,

I kinda find it a bit annoying that, after completing missions for the AI and giving them resources etc (as they often request), that they still seem to want you to perform missions at the same frequency level as before even if it is not mutually beneficial e.g. attack green when you are fighting it out big time with red and can't really spare the ships. Do you think it would improve the game to perhaps increase the time between mission assignments once you've made an ally (i.e. full alliance) - as in, they now trust you more and thus cut you a little more slack so don't get you to go on missions as often? But may get you to go on bigger or more important missions.

I would kinda like it if the missions assigned by a full ally would be a bit more fun e.g. attack planet x or rendezvoux with fleet at asteroid y for a combined attack in 10 mins (might be impractical - but u get my point I hope about different missions) :-)

What do you think? Are you happy with the status quo alliances having to be continously serviced with the same kind of missions?

Keep well.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
siAION, generally you don't have to worry too much about failing a mission or two from an ally. You don't have to do everything they say.

-- Retro