Za H:

You are correct that the question is misleading. My bad. The original point is still something to be considered (that the power of early leasing comes not from the quick build, but from getting twice as much production out of that turn than you otherwise would get). I don't think that their is a hard and fast rule to answer this question. In some situations one should probably lease, in others (especially with the largest size possible map) one should almost never do so. The main question seems to be the size of the map, but their are other issues. Does anyone know if the AI takes into consideration the size of the map when planning its early expansion? In a theoretical situation where leasing meant the difference between getting a planet or not getting a planet then you should have leased... It is probably too high a risk to take for such a small return though.

~SDC~

Someone claimed the A.I is traiding early on and thus having alot of techonologies.
The problem is that I can almost always see A.I has NOT developed diplomatic translators so cannot communicate, even less trade, and no player (human or A.I) should in any case not be able to develop diplomatic translators during the first few months.

So A.I either has theese techologies as free gifts, of then they somehow cheat. But NOT trade!

I believe the Arcean's lease colony ships and constructors early. You will notice that on some games this works, on others it doesn't. I have seen them grab worlds that form a U or L around the Torian home sector -- they nabbed systems right from under their nose!

When it works you will see the Arcean's become a strong player in the galaxy. When it doesn't, they are crippled by debt for the entire game.

Hey Elkku, good point. I was going to bring that up myself. Why is it that only the human player needs universal translators? Sometimes I meet a race to trade with and I can trade them UTs. I guess theoretically the AI that doesn't have UTs can only talk to other races with UTs. But still, in the beginning they don't have them, how are they able to trade for technologies?

Lease or not to lease? In a game I just started I leased, I am 50 turns in or so and very sorry to see my 5bc/month disappear. I may only lease for wonders now.

I guess what eluded me in the beginning of this was the early game economy micromanagement. Now that people have shown me the path I am having more success.

~SDC~

renaissanceroam:

My point is even if not leasing colony ships translates into the AI getting to the good planets before you do, you are probably better off just building transports and conquering those planets instead. With the huge advantage to attackers in planetary invasions, not only do you still acquire the planets, but you also deplete the AI's population and make them waste a colony ship for naught. Aside from rushing wonders and trade goods, I see very little use for taking leases. In fact, I think the whole lease system, while well intended, is not very well developed. The duration of Mitrosoft leases are ridiculously long, and the other two alternatives just cost way too much. Perhaps a simple slider would perform much better, with the initial and subsequent payments automatically adjusting as you vary the duration of the lease.

Elkku:

It is only necessary for one side of the table to have Diplomatic Translators. That said, the problem Badbonez has encountered is more likely a result of slow expansion instead of AIs trading techs with each other.

ringlord:

I maintain that the AI's tendency to take leases on colony ships is a bad idea in general and one of the many reasons why they still cannot match the expansion of a human player. A short list of AI flaws for early expansion off the top of my head include:

- Taking leases on colony ships
- Wasting too much resource on social and research spending
- Reluctance to declare war for early land grabs
- Reluctance to milk minor civs for all they have
- Reluctance to colonize low quality planets for purposes of ship range extension
- Inability to utilize survey ship for early battles
- Inability to deploy large numbers of scouts to locate anomalies, resources, minor civs, and other major civs including the player
- Inability to recognize the importance of Controlled Gravity for range extension
- Inability to recognize the importance of Impulse Drives for speed boosts and transports
- Inability to recognize the importance of trade goods and wonders such Gravity Accelerators and the Eye of the Universe
- Wasting too much resource on military units such as Defenders when it can replace the need for heavy garrisons with good scouting

As long as the human player can capitilize on these mistakes, the AI will never be able to beat us in expansion unless it starts in a much more favorable location and other bonuses.

Za H,

The beauty of the Mitrosoft leases at that they ARE painful. But most people still agree that you should take one out if it means the difference between getting an important trade good or wonder.

The interest itself is reasonable. You wind up paying less than twice as much with the lease, than if you bought it outright. That's reality. Diplomatic Translators today are worth a lot more than Diplomatic Translators 200 months from now.

Maybe the base price should be lowered in order to make it a little bit easier to buy stuff? In all the other civ type games I've played, buying stuff was usually part of the strategy, but in GalCiv it seldom pays to buy anything because it's so darn expensive. The money is better spent buying techs from other civs, and for pumping up your spending to 100%.

And thanks for your list of things the AI doesn't do well. Not only does it all seem true, it's a great roadmap for me to do those things and improve my game. So thanks again for the tips.

Once again, this shows that the GalCiv AI is jut like every other AI ever out there. They only seem like they are smart until you learn how to play the game better, then they seem awfully stupid.

You know, to me this thread is a terrific example of what make the game good, and I'm not just talking about a community of people who can discuss it without flaming each other. The OP asked a question about how the AI does something and the responses have varied all over the place from 100% military spending to 0% military, to leasing ships, to not leasing ships, to trading for techs, etc. And the cool thing is that they are *all valid strategies.* I've learned a ton just from reading these posts.

Now, if I could just figure out an excuse to stay home from work so I can play . . ..


RR

The Leader:

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but when I referred to the "ridiculously long" durations of the Mitrosoft lease, I meant to point out that it's duration is so long that it becomes a moot point to the player. If you're going to beat the game two hundred turns before you pay off the full value of that lease, why would you not take it? Seriously, has anyone here ever picked up the Terrain Manf. or United Builders Inc. leases instead of Mitrosoft? It's very rare that I even purchase anything outright from Galactic Manufacturing Corp. either now, except maybe a few cheap scouts here and there. It often takes 100-300 turns before the Mitrosoft lease is actually costing you more than any other option in game. Let's look at the basic colony ship for example:

Option 1: 730 immediate purchase
Option 2: 584 up front, 16/turn for 40 turns
Option 3: 246 up front, 10/turn for 77 turns
Option 4: 173 up front, 5/turn for 178 turns

- It takes 112 turns before #1 breaks even with #4
- It takes 211 turns before #2 breaks even with #4
- It takes 169 turns before #3 breaks even with #4

The numbers you see above just grow larger as you deal with more expensive items. The balance of the lease options are simply out of whack, and there is no reason not to grab the Mitrosoft lease when you must purchase something. Amending this to my lease slider suggestion, perhaps a maximum lease duration of 50 turns or so should be enforced so there is a realistic chance that the full value of the lease will be brought to bear on the consumer. Whether the overall price of item purchases should be adjusted is something for the developers to decide. In a game like SMAC or the Civ series, you could pretty much purchase every single improvement on your new colonies once your core empire was strong enough, but this may or may not be what the original design of GalCiv was aiming for.

Now, let's not confuse me saying the Mitrosoft lease is superior with leasing colony ships early on; it's still a bad idea in general