I recall reading a posting from Frogboy in another thread. He said each race values different technologies more or less, and will trade depending on their own goals. His example was that the warlike Drengins would value battle tech much higher than other stuff. I don't recall who you said you were trying to trade with, but if they want miltary supremacy, your deal isn't going anywhere.

I was trading with the Torians. Mind you, this is just one example. I mentioned it because it was VERY early in the game and so it was a simpler example.

As far as the different races evaluating techs differently, I haven't seen this yet. When I get a new tech, I will now typically run it by each of the races before deciding who to deal with first. Every tech I've tried gets the same offer from each race. However, that's just a sample of 5-7 techs so it could be that it was a biased sample.

My big concern is that the AIs seem to trade differently with the human than with the other AIs.

I dont think the AI trades differently that with the Player. I have seen the Dregin with -400 cash but more tech than anyone, a few turns later they had 3000+ and all the other civs are struggling to keep in the green.

Also have you ever wondered why the Minor Civs some times end up several 1000 in debt? i think its because they aquire techs.

Please remember the AI aint stupid, it wont trade your Corvette, or battleship easily, as it knows what a massive advantage those ships are to it. It values it like we do...if i was in a close game..no way in hell i would give them battleship except at an incredible cost!!

Also remember The drengin like Military Techs, and value them higher, as such they value the Social techs lower etc.

~SDC~

Right. Instead of "That is a good deal HOW?", the AI will reply "I'm refusing to trade you that because I hate your guts. Have a nice day."

The AI values different techs differently.

Having great diplomacy ability doesn't mean you can buy a car with a peanut. To the AI defense theory, battle ships, deflectors, and other key techs (to it) are cars and communication theory is a peanut.

Try the opposoite - get defense theory and then trade it for a bunch of its techs.

~SDC~

Frogboy,
OK, I will try that.

But I have to admit that it is a little perplexing that the AI would have such a disparate evaluation for two techs with identical prereqs (none) and identical research costs.

I could understand this for techs that had significantly different prereqs (thus requiring a lot of add'l research) or provided access to a key unit or improvement.

Apparently the diplomatic cheese starts on turn 1 by choosing "Defense Theory" as the first tech to research. :notsure:

btw,

uruguru = thongor

thongor was my Stardock name after I bought the game

Trade...here is how to trade. Take over three of his best planets in three different sectors, taking enough Influence to swing the sector to your favor and begin converting his planet. Then the bastard will offer you Evolutionary Theory, Xeno Manipulation, Overlord, and 400BC a turn for 20 turns just to get you to stop kicking his ass. His ally, whom you haven't even begun to beat up will offer you 400BC a turn for 50 turns just to keep you from kicking his ass.

To get the aliens to bargain, you simply have to offer them something they want...like living.

This is how you trade with aliens.

You're talking like the way the AI values the theory techs make sense. It doesn't. To take Defense theory - it's easier to trade for deflectors or shields than defense theory, and the opportunity to research that is the only benefit defense theory gives. you even get a ship type from them!

Oh, and I suspect that the AIs trades between itself like they trade with you, when THEY initiate the deal. I've seen the Drengin offer to trade Battleship tech 1 for 1 with some silly social tech.

"To take Defense theory - it's easier to trade for deflectors or shields than defense theory, and the opportunity to research that is the only benefit defense theory gives. you even get a ship type from them!"

I agree wholeheartedly. I am guessing that the game internally values Defense Theory so highly to force the AI will research it FIRST instead of getting slowed by the other initial techs. This would open up the path to other techs with defensive units that prevent the AI from being rushed by the player. And consequently it is this evaluation that is skewing the diplomacy screen in the example I stumbled across.

If this is actually the case, maybe there needs to be a disconnect between the trade value of a tech and its research priority.

"Oh, and I suspect that the AIs trades between itself like they trade with you, when THEY initiate the deal. I've seen the Drengin offer to trade Battleship tech 1 for 1 with some silly social tech. "

Yes, that is the other smoking gun that I noticed. When the AI approaches me (instead of me approaching him), the deals are always much more balanced. This is how the AIs are probably dealing with each other. And if the AI is truly allowing better deals to itself, this would fall into the "AI cheat" category.

It will be interesting to see of the SF crew will shut down the tech spam exploit.

On related note even humans In Rl (IMHO) dont give each other even deals; always someone tries to get something for free; or a little better than the item is worth. My own experience in MTGO (and other online games) is peopel will ALWAYS try to buy low and sell high; unless there is such a desire for the item that it borders on manic. Its the profit motive; alive and well.

On sid enote thsi was problem in Civ3 IIRC. The AI would only trade you techs on really ridiculous terms sometimes; even crap techs. But it wheeled and dealed with other AIs so much it was insane such that; in general AI tech levels were very high. But the down side in CIV3 was teh AI was such sucker to buy resources or techs fo cash that you could make an easy profit. I havent seen techs sell really profitbaly in GC.

Dawg

Isn't the why and the wherefore beside the initial point?

That being, the program says that there is a large advantage due to the player's diplomacy and the player isn't seeing that effect.

If building up a tremendous advantage in Diplomacy doesn't help your bargain negotiation skills, what does it do? Does it maybe help trade income or make it less likely that other civs will declare war or attempt to extort cash from you?


RR

It does help your negotiation skills.

But like I said, the AI won't sell you a car for a peanut no matter what. Different techs it values differently.

Bottom line thonqor (or whomever) is that at Intelligent level I have no problems ripping the AI a new on in diplomacy. Even if Brad says you can't get a car for a peanut, I just about can sometimes, once the AI's economy is where I want it and the political landscape is more my design, through my own in-game efforts.

As to my "ignorant logic," it comes from my experience of playing used-car dealer to the AI's old-granny approach to diplomacy when I'm at the table across from it. As I said, play the game more.

Your comment about no equal money deals working only shows you haven't paid attention: Brad *fixed* it like this after the AI was raped over just that issue, and I'm glad he did.

To all complaining about the "advantages" not working: Please clam up on this until you've experienced what diplomacy is like when the text reads something like: "We are little mute idiots. Compared to their diplomacy skills- we'd better just leave the table before we sell them our own mothers, sir." It's a pretty bad experience when you're down underneath them. It *does* work to have advantages over them, unless they flat out hate you.

~SDC~

Agreed John Keats--"we will soon have that tech so we are not interested in trading for it" or "we see your strength growing by the day and it will cost you more than that if you think we are going to help you get stronger" or simply "we dont like you so its gonna cost you"
That would help some.I dont get upset when the AI wont trade fairly(happens ALOT more in the tougher diff.settings)I just figure there is something going on in the background that I dont know about.

btw--I never trade military techs unless its with a weak or distant civ that is no threat.I trade social and especially trade techs(the ones that add trade routes).remember if they open that new trade route with you you get money too.

oh--and ALL the AI civs LOVE the trade techs --you almost always get a good deal when trading them(they will pay out the Ass for a new trade route)

"As to my "ignorant logic," it comes from my experience of playing used-car dealer to the AI's old-granny approach to diplomacy when I'm at the table across from it. As I said, play the game more."

Yes, I see that you like cheese.

Perhaps you should read more closely. My "ignorant logic" statement addressed your comment that the diplomacy imbalance shouldn't be fixed because it is already too easy. Perhaps the imbalance is the result of a different problem that you haven't considered.

"Your comment about no equal money deals working only shows you haven't paid attention: Brad *fixed* it like this after the AI was raped over just that issue, and I'm glad he did."

LOL. Exactly how does an AI get "raped" over an equal money deal? Please share more of your logic on this.

"To all complaining about the "advantages" not working: Please clam up on this until you've experienced what diplomacy is like when the text reads something like: "We are little mute idiots. Compared to their diplomacy skills- we'd better just leave the table before we sell them our own mothers, sir." It's a pretty bad experience when you're down underneath them. It *does* work to have advantages over them, unless they flat out hate you. "

So you are saying that having an incredible advantage in diplomacy over the AI simply means you don't get screwed over quite as much in a deal? Is that more of your logic?

I would have no problem with the current setup if it were not for the persistent claims that the AI plays by the same rules as the human player. :notsure:

Oh, and you can take your condescending "play the game more" comments and shove them up your ass. You have no idea how long I've been playing GC and 4X games like it. I am very familiar with all of the cheese strategies for manipulating the AI. It's borderline cheating, not something that makes you a better gamer. However, you obviously feel differently.

You're hopeless. You win. Have fun.

~SDC~

You guys should try trading with BAD or GOOD guys instead...

DEFENSE THEORY IS BUGGED IN TRADE. Plain and simple. The AI wants 20 high-end techs for equal Defense Theory, which is nonsense. There are other techs like Defense Theory that are over-valued. I'm sure they will fix it eventually.

"I offered Comm Theory, Universal Theory AND 600+BC before it would say "yes". For something as easy to get as Defense Theory? gimme a break."

If it's ever so easy to get, why don't you already have it?

The AI isn't going to hand you a way to defend yourself on a silver platter, and nor should it!

I seem to remember you making a bunch of derogatory comments before you had the game as well. Suggesting you play the game some more doesn't seem like a particularly bad idea.
Certainly doesn't justify outright abuse. Learn some manners... :notsure:

~SDC~

"If it's ever so easy to get, why don't you already have it?"

Well, it's already been established that Defense Theory is way overvalued by the AI.

"Suggesting you play the game some more doesn't seem like a particularly bad idea. Certainly doesn't justify outright abuse. Learn some manners... "

Let me explain something. If people are polite to me, I will be polite to them. If others want to be rude to me, I can oblige them as well.

To suggest that what is an obvious imbalance in the trading AI is a result of my lack of playing experience is insulting, especially when the example I provided is most clear early in the game. Now whether this imbalance is intentional to provide a challenge or whether it is an unintended bug is something to figure out.

Throngor, its not really unbalancing.

The AI is loath to part with techs that lead to new ships all through the game. Lets face it, by about turn 50 when you have a lot of your planets it takes ONE tun to research..not a lot.

Im the same..i wont trade Ship related techs to any civ, no matter what they offer me. In my 15 games i have not found it unbalanced at all. Mythor is right about playing the game more mate When you do you realise certain civs value certain techs immensly, and some techs, such as Def.Theory and the precursor techs to battleships and dreadnaughts they value above all others.

~SDC~

Opps was cut off. I never have any problems ripping the AI off, i get more for less in all my trades, im human, i know what im doing the AI is running a logical routine. It wont take you long until you realise you can make the all the AI's combined pay you 600bc/20 + for half the game to fund 100% spending.

~SDC~