Warning: On Larger Maps With Lots of Planets, If you Didn't Take Patriotic or Malevolence Lvl 2 You've Screwed Yourself

By on June 16, 2015 4:32:31 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

marigoldran

Join Date 06/2013
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It's the way the LEP system works.  The problem is LEP takes morale points away from the base pool.  

So if you have +20 morale on your planets from starbase and buildings, but have 100 planets, your morale will be exactly ZERO even if you have +600% morale boost, because 

0*6=0. 

[EDIT: Wait a second.  Is this right? I wouldn't know because I'm good at math and so I ALWAYS take Patriotic or Malevolence level 2 and so I don't pay attention).  

Furthermore, if you didn't figure this out BEFORE starting a game on insane, you're doomed.  Even worse, you won't realize how doomed you are until 30 hours into the game.

On almost any map Gigantic or Larger with abundant habitable planets and standard number of AI, Patriotic is a must.  For larger maps, with lots of AI, Malevolence Level II approval bonus from invasion is a must if you did not take Patriotic.  THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS IN THE LONG RUN.  

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June 16, 2015 4:48:22 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??

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June 16, 2015 4:49:24 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting dansiegel30,

Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??

As a matter of fact, I haven't.  Because they take up space and are otherwise useless.  Much better to build factories and conquer planets to get the approval bonus.  

I always choose the most efficient option.  If the option doesn't appear efficient I WON'T EVEN BOTHER TO TEST IT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAYS.

Mathematically, there is LITERALLY NO REASON AT ALL to build morale buildings in the first place.  

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June 16, 2015 4:52:33 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting marigoldran,


Quoting dansiegel30,

Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??



As a matter of fact, I haven't.  Because they take up space and are otherwise useless.  Much better to build factories.  

I always choose the most efficient option.  If the option doesn't appear efficient I WON'T EVEN LOOK AT IT.  

 

Which is why you look a little silly stating this. Morale buildings do not give a % increase, it's a flat bonus.

 

Their adjacency bonuses are also flat bonuses, so putting a 2 happiness entertainment Center next to your colony hub gives it 1 bonus, for a lovely 50% increase in effectiveness. 

 

Choosing 'the most efficient option' would probably be helped by actually looking at what options are available to you rather than glancing at them and assuming they are non-viable

 

 

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June 16, 2015 4:54:16 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting TurielD,


Quoting marigoldran,






Quoting dansiegel30,



Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??



As a matter of fact, I haven't.  Because they take up space and are otherwise useless.  Much better to build factories.  

I always choose the most efficient option.  If the option doesn't appear efficient I WON'T EVEN LOOK AT IT.  



 

Which is why you look a little silly stating this. Morale buildings do not give a % increase, it's a flat bonus.

Oh.  Well.  Glad for the edit.  Nonetheless, the point stands: morale buildings are still completely useless.  Get Patriotic.  Or Malevolence Lvl 2.  And on larger maps, morale buildings won't help because the LEP becomes too high to the point where if you spam morale buildings it STILL won't help.  

I'm not even sure morale buildings are a good choice on smaller maps with fewer planets, either.  The reason is because isn't a maxed out factory taking the tile space pretty much ALWAYS better? 

Look, if even a stupid person like me can see the obvious (and I admit this freely, as you've pointed it out yourself), shouldn't this be equally obvious to others as well? 

 

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June 16, 2015 5:16:38 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting marigoldran,


Oh.  Well.  Glad for the edit.  Nonetheless, the point stands: morale buildings are still completely useless.  Get Patriotic.  Or Malevolence Lvl 2.  And on larger maps, morale buildings won't help because the LEP becomes too high to the point where if you spam morale buildings it STILL won't help.  

I'm not even sure morale buildings are a good choice on smaller maps with fewer planets, either.  The reason is because isn't a maxed out factory taking the tile space ALWAYS better? 

Look, if even a stupid person like me can see the obvious (and I admit this freely, as you've pointed it out yourself), shouldn't this be equally obvious to others as well? 

 

 

You're right, the LEP as a flat rate per-planet works very badly for big games.

As for morale buildings never being a good choice, well, there's a range, but in the majority of cases it's probably not worth the build slot. I usually go with 1 next to my colony hub because it's hard to pass up the large % effectivenss bonus

 

Getting Patriotic does rather take away the need for approval buildings, indeed - at the opportunity cost of not having one of the other useful abilities. So, they're 'completely useless' if you discount the value of having Intuitive, Colonizers, Adaptable, Prolific, Starfaring, Synthetic etc. Caveats all over. How badly are you 'screwed' if you do not chose patriotic and get a huge empire?

 

I.e., what is the downside of going to 0% approval?

 

-25% population growth. -25% production. -25% influence growth, -75% resistance to culture flipping/invasions.

 

Which of those, exactly, do you give a damn about if you have 100 planets? Why are you doomed with no approval?

 

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June 16, 2015 5:18:31 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

The issue is in the late game the -25% production and -25% growth from bad morale is more than cancelled by the +100% bonus from the extra factory after accounting for the adjacency bonuses.  

Patriotic in the early game allows colony spam without having to worry about morale. In the early game the -25% from bad morale is actually a big deal and Patriotic can avoid it.

Also, I would like to point out that Colonizers is OUTRIGHT better than Engineering.  The reason is because Colonizers allows EVERY colony to start with a shipyard if you so desire.  

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June 16, 2015 5:38:10 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting marigoldran,


Quoting dansiegel30,

Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??



As a matter of fact, I haven't.  Because they take up space and are otherwise useless.  Much better to build factories and conquer planets to get the approval bonus.  

I always choose the most efficient option.  If the option doesn't appear efficient I WON'T EVEN BOTHER TO TEST IT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAYS.

Mathematically, there is LITERALLY NO REASON AT ALL to build morale buildings in the first place.  

Approval building, albiet only flat bonuses, at high tech levels can get very powerful, especially if placed in terrain improvement plots.  There are only a few morale % techs, but I usually dont take them myself.  There is a simple solution which you have yet to explore with all of your games, so please stop whining about LEP in every other thread.

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June 16, 2015 5:39:47 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

What's the point of building an approval building when you can just plop a factory there in place of it?

Personally I think developers created the concept of "morale improving buildings" to confuse the player and make them play worse.  They're a trap that will lead you away from the most optimal path.  I know I'm not very smart, but any other explanations for why developers created the concept of "morale improving buildings" don't make sense.  

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June 16, 2015 8:34:51 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting marigoldran,

What's the point of building an approval building when you can just plop a factory there in place of it?

Personally I think developers created the concept of "morale improving buildings" to confuse the player and make them play worse.  They're a trap that will lead you away from the most optimal path.  I know I'm not very smart, but any other explanations for why developers created the concept of "morale improving buildings" don't make sense.  

 

Okay, let's close down cinemas, theme parks such as Disneyland, TV stations, radio stations, games development industry, games arcade, etc.

And build manufacturing factories in place of all these.

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June 16, 2015 8:49:34 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting marigoldran,

What's the point of building an approval building when you can just plop a factory there in place of it?

Personally I think developers created the concept of "morale improving buildings" to confuse the player and make them play worse.  They're a trap that will lead you away from the most optimal path.  I know I'm not very smart, but any other explanations for why developers created the concept of "morale improving buildings" don't make sense.  

 

Hehe, now you've gone down the opposite direction from 'I am the awesomest player ever' to 'I'm oh so humble'

 

In any event, it looks like what the devs intended was to make Morale a mechanic which would gimp your planets in a number of ways if you didn't keep your population happy somehow. However, these mechanics don't really function very well (yet, at least) and so they fail to offer a viable alternative to pure focused manufacturing.

 

Tourism buildings are much the same, they can't compete with normal economic builds for planets, even with big boosts. That isn't because the devs wanted you to mess up by building tourism, it's because they haven't balanced all the diferent play styles yet. It will take time to do so, as more players discover (and complain about) how different things do or don't work very well.

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June 16, 2015 9:31:06 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Therefore the proper way to balance LEP then is to INCREASE the malus, to force you to pick approval buildings over that extra factory.

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June 16, 2015 9:41:51 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Placing a factory/research building isn't always better than raising moral. There's a balance, unless your LEP is a silly number the high morale bonus often works out a larger increase since it affects total production. LEP is easy to counter until you get to over 100 colonies, and once you do it doesn't matter. I can't be bothered to micro 100 colonies, I get annoyed past 30ish, this doesn't impact a large number of players.

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June 16, 2015 9:47:17 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting marigoldran,

What's the point of building an approval building when you can just plop a factory there in place of it?

Actually, when I ran the numbers a while back for a Q12 planet, the morale building was the BEST building to build first when starting a research planet if your approval isn't maxed.

The production and growth bonus compound each other, and is stronger than a factory first, flat out. That was before population was buffed, so morale should actually be even stronger now.

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June 16, 2015 10:17:12 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting marigoldran,

Quoting dansiegel30,

Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??



As a matter of fact, I haven't.  Because they take up space and are otherwise useless.  Much better to build factories and conquer planets to get the approval bonus.  

I always choose the most efficient option.  If the option doesn't appear efficient I WON'T EVEN BOTHER TO TEST IT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAYS.

Mathematically, there is LITERALLY NO REASON AT ALL to build morale buildings in the first place.  

Ok well no wonder. You argument is now invalid. And I have won on Insane (since it is the only map size I play with the exception of playing on Huge for MP) without Patriotic or Malevolence Lvl 2.

 

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June 16, 2015 10:24:49 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Stalker0,


Quoting marigoldran,

What's the point of building an approval building when you can just plop a factory there in place of it?



Actually, when I ran the numbers a while back for a Q12 planet, the morale building was the BEST building to build first when starting a research planet if your approval isn't maxed.

The production and growth bonus compound each other, and is stronger than a factory first, flat out. That was before population was buffed, so morale should actually be even stronger now.

I was going to do this just to theorycraft it a little, but I don't know where the morale bonusses are actually listed - they appear to be hidden in-game :/

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June 16, 2015 1:41:27 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

marigoldran,

You clearly have your way of playing the game and I have my way of playing the game.  The fact of this argument proves there are multiple ways to play the game and succeed.  Personally I always play with the settings that you stated and don't use the Malevolent traits or only do sparingly.  I do, however, build morale buildings and star base improvements and I'm not "screwed" as you so colorfully stated.  

The game is great allowing for multiple strategies and paths to victory.  Thanks for sharing yet another way that you play the game.

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June 16, 2015 2:49:58 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting dansiegel30,

Therefore the proper way to balance LEP then is to INCREASE the malus, to force you to pick approval buildings over that extra factory.

 

Not really. The problem is, you're still gonna hit the capping point sooner or later, and when you do the approval buildings become useless, so you may as well not waste time building them in the first place (besides which, an extra farm or two is almost always a better choice anyway). It's a mechanic which basically breaks conquest games on maps with over 100 planets, and it will continue to break them regardless of where you set the malus.

 

Much as I hate to agree with Marigoldran (at least until he stops endlessly producing extra threads to say exactly the same thing), he's right.

 

You get -0.2 approval per world, right? And only +2 approval from the basic entertainment center. So if you have 40 worlds, you have -8 approval for starters. You need to build 3 entertainment centers just to get any benefit at all (+1, which you then have to divide by the colony's population); you need 5 to hit 100% approval once the colony has filled the colony capital pop limit. That cancels out the -25% production and gives you the maximum +25%... But so does just building 2 of the correct production type for whatever you're specializing the world in. That's 2/5th of the land cost for the same result - and that's if you don't build any farms. Every farm you build gives an eventual 40% bonus to production compared to the base colony, and so is much more effective.

 

Run the numbers. You have 40 worlds, I have 40 worlds.

I colonize a planet and build no approval buildings. I add 5 farms into the empty slots. I have 15 population with a -25% penalty to production, giving me 11.25 population's worth of output.

You colonize the planet and build 5 approval buildings. You have 5 population with a 25% bonus to production, giving you 6.25 population's worth of output.

 

This carries on all the way up the scale til you hit the 30b population cap on a planet. You're better off just getting farms.

 

You need an extra approval building for every single farm on a planet, and an extra approval building for every 10 planets you have, too (which is yet another example of why wide empires are better than tall ones). This means that approval buildings actually lose value in relation to other buildings as the empire expands. Once games go over about 20 planets per player, approval buildings have lost so much value that that you should never buy them because you can gain the same bonus much, much cheaper elsewhere.

 

This is an unavoidable problem with the mechanic, and requires an additional punitive external mechanic to deal with it (i.e., worlds rebelling, a research cost increase, maintenance penalties). And once you have an additional mechanic for that... well, why bother with using approval? You already have something to punish over-expansion, so what's the point in dragging approval into it on top?

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June 16, 2015 2:58:48 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Yeah Morale is bull-crap on large maps, I have morale techs maxed, with a building on every planet, benevolent ideology maxed to noble, 3 maxed approval relics, all the harmony crystals I can find, and still have 2 overall morale. STARDOCK fix this garbage!!!

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June 16, 2015 3:02:47 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting meteuremu,

Yeah Morale is bull-crap on large maps, I have morale techs maxed, with a building on every planet, benevolent ideology maxed to noble, 3 maxed approval relics, all the harmony crystals I can find, and still have 2 overall morale. STARDOCK fix this garbage!!!

Your doing something wrong....  How many planets do you have?

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June 16, 2015 3:06:16 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting naselus,

I colonize a planet and build no approval buildings. I add 5 farms into the empty slots. I have 15 population with a -25% penalty to production, giving me 11.25 population's worth of output.

You colonize the planet and build 5 approval buildings. You have 5 population with a 25% bonus to production, giving you 6.25 population's worth of output.

 

 

Hmm, is there a point of base happiness where the *first* approval building gives a bigger bonus than the *last* farm or factory?

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June 16, 2015 3:10:19 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Bellack,


Quoting marigoldran,




Quoting dansiegel30,



Have you EVER built a fookin approval building in all your games??



As a matter of fact, I haven't.  Because they take up space and are otherwise useless.  Much better to build factories and conquer planets to get the approval bonus.  

I always choose the most efficient option.  If the option doesn't appear efficient I WON'T EVEN BOTHER TO TEST IT BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAYS.

Mathematically, there is LITERALLY NO REASON AT ALL to build morale buildings in the first place.  



Ok well no wonder. You argument is now invalid. And I have won on Insane (since it is the only map size I play with the exception of playing on Huge for MP) without Patriotic or Malevolence Lvl 2.

 

Actually, no it doesn't make my point invalid.  My point is that building factories and getting Patriotic for larger map sizes with lots of planets is the MOST EFFICIENT way of winning the game.  

There are in fact other ways of winning but you'd just be handicapping yourself.  The fact that you chose to handicap yourself to win the game on Insane is a big achievement.  

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June 16, 2015 3:39:51 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting TurielD,

Hmm, is there a point of base happiness where the *first* approval building gives a bigger bonus than the *last* farm or factory?

 

Not sure. Problem is, since you need 1 entertainment to cancel out every farm, if you go over X number of farms then entertainment is generally even less effective. I'm drawing up an excel spreadsheet atm to figure it out; thing is, the penalties kick in gradually on a curve. If you graph the following:

 

approval = production

100% = 25%

95%  = 2%

85% = 15%

60% = 5%

40% = 0%

30% = -5%

15% = -15%

5% = -20%

0% = -25%

 

That's how approval effects production.

 

This makes entertainment buildings most valuable if they are used when you are at either the very bottom or the very top of approval. You start out a colony in the middle at 60% approval. Adding 1 entertainment building at this point gets you to 100% approval, which will give you the 25% bonus (again, this is only equal to a factory or research center); adding a farm will get you 40% more production BUT brings you down to about 40% morale, so no 25% bonus. So it's 7 production vs (5*1.25 ) 6.25 production.

 

That's with no LEP at all. With LEP of 1.0 (5 worlds), your base approval is 2/5, 40%. Adding a farm will reduce your morale to 2/7, around 29%, so you'll get 7 pop with a 6% penalty; adding a morale building will give you 4/5 = 80%, so 5 pop with around a 12% bonus. That's 6.65 production from the farms and 5.6 from the approval building.

 

 

Now, if we have no LEP, 3 farms and no approval buildings, we have 11 pop and our approval is 3/11. If we add an entertainment centre now, we have approval of 5/11 (45%). If we add a farm, we have 3/13 (23%). That works out as 11.22 for the entertainment world, versus 13-8% (around 11.7). This would seem to suggest that farms are pretty much always better, but I'll keep working on the spreadsheet.

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June 16, 2015 3:41:56 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

@Naselus - well said, without proprietary formulas!! .  If the capping point is 5 approval vs. farms, then the approval malus should be increased far higher than -25% when at 0% approval.  Frankly, in a society where 100/100 people are completely pissed off and depressed, I dont see how any work would get done, including any bedroom action.

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June 16, 2015 3:48:13 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting dansiegel30,

@Naselus - well said, without proprietary formulas!! .  If the capping point is 5 approval vs. farms, then the approval malus should be increased far higher than -25% when at 0% approval.  Frankly, in a society where 100/100 people are completely pissed off and depressed, I dont see how any work would get done, including any bedroom action.

At which point everyone else also chooses Patriotic as a starting trait and/or get Malevolence Level II and they play like me. 

The more you increase LEP, the stronger Patriotic and Malevolence Level 2 becomes.  

But overall, I have no objections to your statement. In fact I believe it is an absolutely WONDERFUL idea.  I have no problems with everyone else turning into a "MarigoldRan" clone and being forced by the game mechanics to play EXACTLY like me. 

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June 16, 2015 3:52:04 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Looks like an entertainment center IS the better thing to buy if you have >23 population and no LEP. This is also only with the base buildings (of which, you'd need 9 to reach this total). With the higher-level ones, the balance doesn't change much, but you'll hit the 30b population cap sooner, at which point farms become useless.

 

Of course, you're still literally always better off building a factory or research center, since the 25% bonus they provide to whatever you're specializing in is as good as the benefit of maxium approval, or at least cancels out the minimum approval penalty. If you want the growth (ha), resistance (even more ha) or influence, then you just have to build those buildings instead; this becomes more space-efficient than approval by the time you have about 20 planets.

 

EDIT: Even if you have exactly enough LEP to cancel out your existing colony-given approval, and so go from 0% to 40% morale (the biggest jump possible in table-terms),the farm is better - by 0.25 production (it's 5*1 vs 7*0.75). 

 

If the only time morale is really kicking in at all is on huge population worlds with no Large Empire Penalty at all, or with widely divergent tech (which requires multiple upgrades), then I think we can probably just say morale isn't even close to balanced right now.

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