xeryx

Join Date 03/2006

Fleet Warfare and other issues.

Hello everyone at StarDock and here at the forums!!!Cheers

I finally decided to take the plunge and try out the beta 4. I am a longtime Stardock fan and own many games and desktop products. I am glad to see them partnered with Steam now, since the PC gaming market is having hard times. To my credit, I have been playing these types of games for 30 years, and made a few mods for a few games.

I have mostly enjoyed playing a couple of games of the beta 4, and would like to share my initial thoughts.

I do not have time to browse the forums to search for these topics. My time is pretty limited nowadays. However, I wanted to express my thoughts and concerns for the state of this current Beta, hoping that I would be heard! I will try and be "To the point" as much as possible. I also have no idea what is being implemented, but I feel this is important enough for SD to consider.

I feel that too much effort is being focused on the battle viewer at this time, I'm not sure how big of a team is working on this game, but there are so many other game play issues and bugs, that I fear could cause much larger delays.
Hull designs and upgrades; I want a simple check box that I can check multiple items, then hit a delete, obsolete, or upgrade button (or right click) and do it all at once! I am tired of wasting my time doing it, one at a time. I also want available in main right hand side screen on the main page. It is sad I have only played 3 games and already, I am beginning to hate that part of the game.
Good grief, there are 10x the amount of templates than needed, tone them down!!(or have them obsolete themselves)
Thank you for toning down the laser size in the newer version, but I think they still need toned down by hull class.
Tone the influence WAY down it is far too powerful, it needs distance fading implemented. The further away from the HOMEWORLD the weaker it gets, but can get boosts from just ONE and only ONE building on a planet or Starbase. Spamming of culture on planets ruins the game while lessening the value and importance of the Ideology Trait's. Ideology Traits bonuses also need halved (maybe more). I would also check for bugs because it seems broken to me.
Since the Space “viewer” is now an integral part of the game, it has shown me that ship hull designs are seriously flawed. Small ships should in no way be able to do the devastation that they do, as compared to larger hulls.(not without superior numbers)
Hull sizes need bonuses and penalties to even out all classes of ships. This would be the simplest way to equalize the combat of the game. Keeping true to the rock, paper, scissors philosophy. It would also prevent from having to do any major overhauls of anything.
Carrier based fighters should be tiny hulls not small.
Ships are not attacking SB's properly and need to close to engage. The way they fly around them is purely unnatural.
Weapons ranges and Hull points need to be implemented on a per hull basis and need to be adjusted to representing different powers of ship size

Here is my idea for hulls or the approximate there of.(These are approximate values!! to show my point, game values are probably different)

Tiny = 25 hp + 2x Maneuver + ¼ weapon range
Small = 50 hp + 1.5x Maneuver + ½ weapons range
Medium = 100 hp + 1x Maneuver 1x weapons range (baseline)
Large = 250 hp + .75 Maneuver 1.25 weapons range
Huge = 500 hp + .5 Maneuver +1.5 weapons range
Civilian Star base = 1000 HP + 1.75 weapons range
Military Star base = 1500 HP + 2.0 weapons range
You can also use small graphics for the weapons for small ships, then increasing the size for medium etc. That would give a much better feel to size and “Epicness” of the Titans/Huge ships

I will be completely honest, about space battles. I am sure you have looked at or played Endless Space, the battles feel pretty epic. It does have it's flaws but the overall feel is pretty fun. Even as cool as it is to see the battles in GC 3, they feel 180 degrees out of phase to me. They feel like a bad Saturday morning cartoon. Basically, battle does not go the way it should, 5 fighters should not be able to destroy and entire stack of ships and a star base regardless of what tech I posses. Not even the rebellion could pull that off. A star base should be pretty darn hard to take down, if we (the AI and me) are going to spend all these resources and time building them.

The AI needs some serious work, I am actually very unimpressed with it compared to GC 2. I seriously hope you are not waiting until a month from now to unleash the Skynet AI??

Overall though, I do look forward to continued play as the game develops, which is a compliment. I am glad to have the space viewer added, because battles were why I quit playing GC 2. Because ultimately, watching the ships you design blow the crap out of something, makes you invested and that makes you “get into” the game so much more. That is what I wanted to see, ever since the fiasco they called MOO 3.

I want to say good job so far!!

Xeryx

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I also Think starbases need a combat buff. As they should be bigger than any Starship.

But why should Huge Hulls get a disadvantage ..... they are kind of the endgame part.

I only build Huge ships as soon as I get them...

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Quoting AzraeldeBaphuon,

reply 1

I also Think starbases need a combat buff. As they should be bigger than any Starship.

But why should Huge Hulls get a disadvantage ..... they are kind of the endgame part.

I only build Huge ships as soon as I get them...

All hulls except the middle most balanced hull should have advantages and disadvantages. It is all part of game play, strategy and "rock, paper, scissors" or stacking your deck. It is also called the law of physics.

To SD

Star bases- it was brought up earlier by another poster that the whole concept of building each module of the star bases is rather dated, they are completely correct. I would rather not make 20-30 of the constructors, just to build a single star base with modules. This could be simplified greatly in one of two ways, reduce the number of modules needed (make one module for defense and offense, not eight) or Star bases could easily be managed as the planets are. In fact I would rather not worry about trade vessels either. There is always a line to be drawn in the sand with micro-management in a 4x game. I am hoping for good AI assistance in some stuff, because there are days I play, where I just don't want a turn in a game to take an hour, because of micro-managment.

I have been trying to play a game, and the lockups are really starting to nag at me. We need to get these fixed first priority, if "we" the beta testers are important? If the game is broken and we cannot play it, or give up in frustration, then there will be way less needed feedback to improve the game.

Also AI, takes a ton of time to get right, and I think the AI also needs to be a focus for the next release. Again if the game is not fun or challenging, then people will get bored and play other stuff, because we aren't paid testers that "have" to sit there and play.

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Yeah, there is a lot of things that still need done. However, the AI really has to be almost last, because you have to have the features in the game and working before you can really program the AI to use them, and there is still a lot of features to be added. The big ones are in for the most part, but they need to be tweaked and balanced. Combat really needs an overhaul, right now it just isn't good. I like a lot of the OPs suggestions. Star-bases need a lot of work. If i have the barriers tech, the second level of shields, I can only have 33 shields on my star-bases(base of three + 10 from shields, +20 from barriers), but i can put stronger shields on my small sized ships. While I agree with the Devs that Star-bases need to be protected and shouldn't be massive fortresses(except maybe military star bases), but when I have to build an entire constructor ship to add a measly 10 shields to my star base, something is wrong. Also, star bases need a range boost to their weapons.

One of the fundamental problems with Galciv combat is that all of the ships are basically the same, The only difference i know of between the hull types now is tactical speed. Essentially a fighter is the same as a dreadnought, the only difference is the amount of stuff you could put on it. All of the weapons are the same no matter the size of the ship. It's missing the Rock-Paper-Scissors that is needed to make a game great. There really isn't anything that makes different ship sizes special. One game that really got it right, although it was never really finished, was Sword of the Stars 2. In that game larger ships had a higher resistance to damage built in, as well as thicker armor and more HP. Also, bigger ships could fit things that smaller ships couldn't and visa-verse. Smaller ships were more likely to be missed by larger weapons, but took more damage from smaller weapons. The Battle-riders that could be carried on other ships had more firepower, due to not having FTL drives, but relied on speed for their defense. Bigger ships could fit bigger guns, missiles and special modules, but were much easier to hit with the bigger weapons. Long story short, the different sizes of ships need to have inherent strengths and weaknesses. In galciv3 all of that is missing. Unfortunately I don't think the Devs have any really plans in mind when it comes to adding a more complex combat dynamic other than some re-balancing and adding support modules. So that being said I think bigger ships need a lot more HP and space to carry things. I also think that weapons, defenses, and Hit points need tweaking to make the battles last longer. Right now there's nothing strategic about the combat. It's just bang bang bang, one side is dead.

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Tetrasodium

Join Date 03/2006

+17

I like the hull modification ideas, but think that maybe defenses should scale too, . Makes me think about doing some modding tomorrow

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Quoting xeryx,

reply 2

I have been trying to play a game, and the lockups are really starting to nag at me.

I am curious to know what OS, Graphics Card, CPU, and how much RAM your rig has?

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since the PC gaming market is having hard times.

Actually, and not to get off topic, but the PC gaming industry has been doing extremely well in large part due to Steam and other digital distribution services.

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peregrine23

Join Date 02/2007

+79

Quoting charon2112,

reply 6

since the PC gaming market is having hard times.

Actually, and not to get off topic, but the PC gaming industry has been doing extremely well in large part due to Steam and other digital distribution services.

Yeah, I think that comment was from 10 years ago when people were forecasting that console gaming would kill PC gaming.

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I am sure you have looked at or played Endless Space, the battles feel pretty epic.

ES battles are cool, but the camera follows the same canned route for every battle. It gets boring to watch.

The AI needs some serious work, I am actually very unimpressed with it compared to GC 2. I seriously hope you are not waiting until a month from now to unleash the Skynet AI??

The real AI is not in yet, this is a temp AI.

There's still quite a bit to come as far as fleet battles, like ship roles. I agree that it needs work. Battles should feel much more 'epic' and cinematic than they do currently.

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Tetrasodium

Join Date 03/2006

+17

Quick & dirty hacktastic mod created based mostly on the OP's suggestion, it has a thread here

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admiralWillyWilber

Join Date 05/2009

+99

Adding abilities to ships when you level up or heroes would help alleviate this.

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Quoting charon2112,

reply 6

Actually, and not to get off topic, but the PC gaming industry has been doing extremely well in large part due to Steam and other digital distribution services.

I was only referring to a few years ago.

I actually think, that STEAM is doing well NOW, mainly because consoles are now using compatible hardware. PC games are actually a much smaller market share than consoles now. This is why, stores do not carry games for PC much anymore. If it was up to the gaming industry, PC's would always be last to get game ports, prime example GTA5. Steam, is really the only place to get new releases, and third party indie PC software. Obviously, as we get more bandwidth, digital downloads will be the main distribution for the majority of gamers both console and PC. Very recently Stardock's old DL service that was was sold to Game Stop shut down and stopped adding content. Soon I am sure they just cut the power and screw the customers that bought software. I think to accurately sum it up, Steam is doing really well and is the only gaming service in it's class, but that is it! If STEAM did not exist, imagine what a horrible world we would live in??!! Steam, 30MB/s internet and Stardock Rocks!

Quoting Tetrasodium,

reply 9

Quick & dirty hacktastic mod created based mostly on the OP's suggestion, it has a thread here

Thank you, I think a proof of concept would be a great idea, I will give it a shot this weekend.

Quoting charon2112,

reply 8

ES battles are cool, but the camera follows the same canned route for every battle. It gets boring to watch.

Totally agree, they need some work, but give the proper feel of scale to ships and battles.

Quoting Blue_Oyster,

reply 5

I am curious to know what OS, Graphics Card, CPU, and how much RAM your rig has?

Asus Sabertooth x79 with 32gb of Corsair ddr3 1600, i7 3820k running at 4.4

Radeon R9 290, 2TB seagate hybrid, and 256 GB Mushkin SSD

Windows 7, and all the latest graphics and MB drivers.

The lockups are due to bugs, because they happen in many of the same situations. I would say the game locks up on average once an hour. or every couple of turns in later games

Another BUG; The .exe will also stay active in memory, after shutting down the game. Then it will not relaunch because "another instance of the game is running". You have to shutdown the tree from memory or logout to clear the .exe out of memory. Anyone else encountered this issue?

Quoting charon2112,

reply 8

The real AI is not in yet, this is a temp AI.

Unfortunately, I am aware of that. As someone who has worked on game AI, this means that this project is severely behind from, where it should be for an April release..maybe June would be more realistic.

Thank you guys for all the feedback and the discussion, hopefully SD takes notice and we see some changes..who knows.

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peregrine23

Join Date 02/2007

+79

Quoting xeryx,

reply 11

If STEAM did not exist, imagine what a horrible world we would live in??!!

If steam didn't exist another digital distribution platform would have risen to the top. I was actually buying most of my games through direct2drive and Stardock's digital distribution service before I switched to using steam primarily.

Quoting xeryx,

reply 11

This is why, stores do not carry games for PC much anymore.

What a laughable standard, it won't be long before video game stores go the way of book stores. It already seem pretty archaic that console games are still using physical media.

Quoting xeryx,

reply 11

PC games are actually a much smaller market share than consoles now.

Source? because according to a Forbes article from last year, "the PC gaming segment is already twice the size of the console gaming market – and growing."

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First off, this is not going to become a trolling thread, pissing contest or a flame war! Or I'll have it looked at by a moderator. I will leave it at that.

Quoting peregrine23,

reply 12

And you switched to Steam primarily why? Because Steam rocks! Which is my point! Digital distribution is viable now, when done right. like Steam..but don't think for a second that the business they are in is easy or is cheap. That is one of the reasons they have so many sales! To keep the sales (and revenues) fresh, and word of mouth flowing.

Quoting peregrine23,

reply 12

What a laughable standard, it won't be long before video game stores go the way of book stores. It already seem pretty archaic that console games are still using physical media.

It may be laughable to you, but up until this year I had very limited download speeds. So being able to go to the store to buy a PC game would have been awesome for the last 3-5 years. I also live in a small town, so big stores are limited as well. It just wasn't plausible for me, until I could get HSI last year. Some people are lucky to live in areas with very fast high speed internet and lots of stores, I wasn't.

Quoting peregrine23,

reply 12

Source? because according to a Forbes article from last year, "the PC gaming segment is already twice the size of the console gaming market – and growing."

I don't buy into that article for a nano-second, but you can look here even though it is 2013, it at least has some real numbers, not just opinions.

How many units of PS4's were sold since it's release 19.9 million. Xbox One 12.95 Million up to January 2015. Here is expected PC and mobile devices sold world wide (PC's 268,491 units) for 2015. Notice tablets alone are expected to outsell all PC's.

So you see, PC's are only a fraction of the market. Even if you took PC market saturation into account, less than 30% of computers are used for PC games (IIRC). Most computers are used for business. Thanks to Steam, PC software is gaining traction again. If projections are accurate they may catch up with console game growth, not sales volume $$$. Now that new consoles are PC based processors, we will see good ports of games. It wasn't an accident that GTA 5 was released on last gen consoles first, then next gen and PC's last. It is all about making money for ROCKSTAR, EA, SEGA and SONY. PC Sales are still declining, as people shift to mobile tablets. The proof is in facts, not opinions.

What I love about STEAM, is they aren't a bunch of sellouts just looking to make a fast buck. They actually have integrity, and are trying to improve the PC market.

However, this topic stops now.

Now let's get back on topic.

Xeryx

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Tetrasodium

Join Date 03/2006

+17

I've updated my recent hacktastic mod to a v2 to include some changes based on this thread details & mod itself available here

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