Pirating is so easy!

Really, wow!

By on October 14, 2014 3:17:32 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

DARCA1213

Join Date 01/2014
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I don't think I can give a link to this site or the game, but I was looking for a game I wanted and Google and while I was typing it had popped up with other variations like normal. But one of them  the word free I on the end as well. I was all like, "what is this" "hell ya" and my favorite word... 'Really"

So a followed the link read some stuff and was about to happily download it then I realized this is what sin looks like. I realized it was illegal and not a free version but pirated since the game was a steam exclusive. Its actually funny when a consider how hard I am on pirates, I almost become one by not thinking! (Even though the game if rated3/10  )

Well that's the end of the funny story.

 

DARCA

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October 27, 2014 3:45:44 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

The purpose of my original post was simply to address the "Everyone who pirates is a dickwad" comment. I pretty much just wanted to say that, even though I had in fact pirated GC2, I didn't consider myself a dickwad, since I did eventually come to buy it, and am now invested in the series as a result. I have been exposed to a lot of games through piracy and later purchased those games as a result. My intention was just to communicate that not all pirates are scum of the earth. I admit that I was overzealous in my attempt to sugar coat piracy and my response(s) got a little out of hand. Thankfully I don't mind getting into long discussions. I am also not above changing my mind. The viewpoints that many of you have expressed are valid, and there is no doubt that my opinion carries a heavy bias in favor of my long history in the piracy scene. With that said, I do feel that I should probably shut-up about piracy and focus on buying more games outright. I apologize if i offended anyone. Please buy your games!

PS: I didn't realize this was in a general forum that links to what appears to be the Elemental Forums, which resulted in more attention than I anticipated.

Note: Just to clear this up a bit, piracy is called "copyright infringement." It is not criminal, it is almost always civil in nature. If the court finds you guilty, then you are ordered to pay statutory damages, actual damages, and/or for loss in profits. The supreme court has also made it clear that piracy is not considered theft, it is copyright infringement, but I suppose these things are all a matter of semantics. 

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October 27, 2014 4:00:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derracs,

The purpose of my original post was simply to address the "Everyone who pirates is a dickwad" comment. I pretty much just wanted to say that, even though I had in fact pirated GC2, I didn't consider myself a dickwad, since I did eventually come to buy it, and am now invested in the series as a result. I have been exposed to a lot of games through piracy and later purchased those games as a result. My intention was just to communicate that not all pirates are scum of the earth. I admit that I was overzealous in my attempt to sugar coat piracy and my response(s) got a little out of hand. Thankfully I don't mind getting into long discussions. I am also not above changing my mind. The viewpoints that many of you have expressed are valid, and there is no doubt that my opinion carries a heavy bias in favor of my long history in the piracy scene. With that said, I do feel that I should probably shut-up ad piracy and focus on buying more games outright. I apologize if i offended anyone. Please buy your games!

PS: I didn't realize this was in a general forum that links to what appears to be the Elemental Forums, which resulted in more attention than I anticipated.

 

This is not a personal attack since I don't know you, it's not even an attack, it's a very direct observation.

 

Pirating a game is a dickwad move. Pirating movies is a dickwad move. Pirating music is a dickwad move. If the cost of entry is to high, then don't participate. Your wants and needs are not always the same. The things you want to try or should try don't always line up. If you think something is too expensive, don't waste time on it, and look elsewhere. If the cost is prohibitive and the retailer/publisher/developer loses your business over it, their problem, not yours. Using this circular logic of yours, what's to stop anyone from stealing your car, house, wallet, underwear etc? But, they love your brand new Toyota Camry, MB e550, Porsche 911. If not yours, then from the dealer, or food or whatever...

 

When someone pirates anything, they are stealing from the people that produced the goods, returning later and buying said goods is not a valid justification for the original act. Having said that, it's your life, your choices, it is just a video game or song or movie, and not a car, house, someones personal item. That's the kind of logic that thieves use, and.. well, you know where this goes.

 

Again, I am just showing you the other side of your logic, please don't thin that I have any feelings towards you personally.

 

Quoting Derracs,


Quoting Nasarog,

Theft is theft. Some types of theft are much worse than others, but at the end of the day, theft is theft. If you stole something, be smart and STFU about it. Pretend you didn't and get on with your day. Next, you'll be posting about how killing is good and go into great detail about the benefits of killing.  I realize that I am using a very extreme example, but it follows your logic.  Sorry buddy. You're a thief. Had you been a quiet thief, no one would have ever known.  I', not judging because I don't care, and I understand your stance, but I think you are still wrong.



It's not so much an extreme example as a poor one. The result of killing, just like anything else, can be good or bad. The action is always bad, but the end result can have a positive outcome. Have you ever heard of the death penalty? Or maybe a little event in our history called WWII and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It's actually a very unreal event in history to consider, both in terms of actual lives lost, and morality as an exercise.

"The committee rejected the use of the weapon against a strictly military objective due to the chance of missing a small target not surrounded by a larger urban area. The psychological effects on Japan were of great importance to the committee members"

The targets were picked specifically to include maximum casualties. The entire point was to cause as much death and destruction as possible. Hiroshima was also a military target, but represented a great amount of collateral damage in terms of urban population and infrastructure. Include the fact that it was located between mountains, which were thought to help create a "focusing effect," and you have yourself an ideal target. It was a very successful operation, with 90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima alone.

Were these acts of killing wrong? Did they benefit a greater good? Would the war undoubtedly cost more lives on both sides if it had been allowed to continue? Could it be argued that by killing over and hundred thousand, lives were saved? You brought up the example. Not even the act of killing is entirely black and white.

 

I just saw that. What strange logic. You are right that maybe my choice of examples was poor, but theft often leads to worse crimes, especially when perpetuated on a person. I am not implying that your pirating will lead to other crimes, I don't know you at all.  But theft is theft, and in the act of committing theft, many things can happen which often includes horrendous violence. Does that make more sense?

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October 27, 2014 4:38:49 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Nasarog,
When someone pirates anything, they are stealing from the people that produced the goods, returning later and buying said goods is not a valid justification for the original act. Having said that, it's your life, your choices, it is just a video game or song or movie, and not a car, house, someones personal item. That's the kind of logic that thieves use, and.. well, you know where this goes.

I take no offense. This is the problem with making comparisons to other things, like someone stealing a car. In the case of stealing a car something physical is actually taken in an act of theft, not copied, resulting in a hypothetical loss of profits. This is why the US Supreme Court has ruled that copyright infringement is not theft. Since a physical item is not stolen, but instead intellectual property is being copied. The term that has been created for the misappropriation of intellectual property is "an infringer of the copyright." This is how you would be addressed in court.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Theft.22

The act of copyright infringement is also very rarely criminal, and charges are filed only in extreme cases, such as selling copyrighted material for profit. It is almost always civil in nature. If the court finds you guilty of copyright infringement, then you are ordered to pay statutory damages, actual damages, and/or for loss in profits. I suppose this is mostly a matter of semantics, but copyright infringement and theft are considered two entirely separate things. One is most always civil, the other is a criminal act.

Source: http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/copy-corner66.htm

If I take you to court for creating a product that infringes on my intellectual property, say a patent that I filed, while I can file for damages, I cannot have you put in jail for stealing (a criminal offense), since it is not a criminal matter. While you may have copied my ideas, schematics, drawings, etc. you never actually stole a physical item from me. Therefore I can sue for an implied loss, but there is no physical loss. This doesn't make it right, by any means, I'm just saying there is a difference. 

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October 27, 2014 5:07:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Derracs,


Quoting Nasarog,
When someone pirates anything, they are stealing from the people that produced the goods, returning later and buying said goods is not a valid justification for the original act. Having said that, it's your life, your choices, it is just a video game or song or movie, and not a car, house, someones personal item. That's the kind of logic that thieves use, and.. well, you know where this goes.



I take no offense. This is the problem with making comparisons to other things, like someone stealing a car. In the case of stealing a car something physical is actually taken in an act of theft, not copied, resulting in a hypothetical loss of profits. This is why the US Supreme Court has ruled that copyright infringement is not theft. Since a physical item is not stolen, but instead intellectual property is being copied. The term that has been created for the misappropriation of intellectual property is "an infringer of the copyright." This is how you would be addressed in court.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Theft.22

The act of copyright infringement is also very rarely criminal, and charges are filed only in extreme cases, such as selling copyrighted material for profit. It is almost always civil in nature. If the court finds you guilty of copyright infringement, then you are ordered to pay statutory damages, actual damages, and/or for loss in profits. I suppose this is mostly a matter of semantics, but copyright infringement and theft are considered two entirely separate things. One is most always civil, the other is a criminal act.

Source: http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/copy-corner66.htm

If I take you to court for creating a product that infringes on my intellectual property, say a patent that I filed, while I can file for damages, I cannot have you put in jail for stealing (a criminal offense), since it is not a criminal matter. While you may have copied my ideas, schematics, drawings, etc. you never actually stole a physical item from me. Therefore I can sue for an implied loss, but there is no physical loss. This doesn't make it right, by any means, I'm just saying there is a difference. 

 

Okay, well, you have a point there, but try to look at it from the perspective of the developers. You write clearly and support your stance, but I still think you are completely wrong. I am done with this post. I would be surprised if you don't end up banned from these forums, and if that is your steam name, banned from steam. If you used your real e-mail address that's connected to steam as well, don't be surprised at the results. They highly frown upon software pirates.

 

Good luck and have a nice day.

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October 27, 2014 5:13:23 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I once saw a lady pick her nose and eat the...stuff.

I've seen people eat bagged grapes in the supermarket.

Anywho .

Dude, that isn't logical, cause and effect is well known. However the effects of WW2 are still being seen. To say the killing was good is wrong and to say it was bad may also be. It was all in Sovereignty however because all was considered in its doing. It was a means to a end, war. Piracy is not similar to the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the circumstances that defined its Sovereignty apply only to its scenario.

Pirating is not Sovereign. May I say, I see the points you are making but they are out of context. I believe Derracs is saying that Pirating is wrong, however it has valuable benefits that are not typically thought of.

 

DARCA ;- )

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October 27, 2014 6:45:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DARCA1213,

I once saw a lady pick her nose and eat the...stuff.

I've seen people eat bagged grapes in the supermarket.

Anywho .

Dude, that isn't logical, cause and effect is well known. However the effects of WW2 are still being seen. To say the killing was good is wrong and to say it was bad may also be. It was all in Sovereignty however because all was considered in its doing. It was a means to a end, war. Piracy is not similar to the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the circumstances that defined its Sovereignty apply only to its scenario.

Pirating is not Sovereign. May I say, I see the points you are making but they are out of context. I believe Derracs is saying that Pirating is wrong, however it has valuable benefits that are not typically thought of.

 

DARCA ;- )

 

Yea, well, I popped in for a second, I wasn't talking about wars. he was. He took what I said, and blew it up.  That's all fine and good, but I don't see how pirating helps the artist. If the artist wanted to give their work away for free, they would. But what do I know.

 

 

anyways....

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October 27, 2014 10:53:31 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Interesting exchange. 

The only thing I can add is my firm conviction that those who pirate a full version of a game will ultimately buy the game at a rate of less than 2%.

I make no moral judgement. I simply don't pirate because I have a compulsive aversion to being caught with my hand in the cookie jar. 

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October 27, 2014 11:14:10 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Nasarog,

I wasn't talking about wars. he was. He took what I said, and blew it up.

"blew it up"

That made me laugh given the reference to war and Hiroshima in particular. 

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October 27, 2014 11:27:08 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Just a hypothetical...if a friend tires of an xbox game and gives it to me, am I a thief?  Technically, if I want to play, I should buy my own disc, correct?  What if he gives me a DVD or a book to read?  Is that wrong?

 

Is there really any difference between my scenario and downloading a game through file sharing with like minded 'friends'...?

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October 27, 2014 11:55:36 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Buying a used game poses a similar question. I think the most relevant difference in the situation you mentioned in relation to computer piracy is the fact that there is only one copy of the game being passed between two or three individuals. Lets say someone purchased a single copy for $50, let a friend "borrow" it, and then sold it as a used game. That would be a hypothetical loss of $100 to the developer. 

This is, of course, different from making unlimited copies and giving them away for free. When you make a game available online, there is potentially an unlimited number of people who can utilize that single purchase. So a single purchase of $50 could represent a hypothetical loss of $500,000. It makes sense to target this individual instead of the first because they personally represent such a large potential loss.

In theory, countless iterations of the first scenario could cost a developer more money than online piracy, but that's assuming a very large number of second hand sales and game trades. It is also nearly impossible to punish this type of behavior since you can't blame a single individual and used game sales/lending fall under "fair use" regulations.

This is all in regards to the person sharing the media however. As a consumer, whether you were given [hit title] by a friend or pirated it on your computer, the result is the same. You played a game but didn't pay for it.

Note: I suppose the logical argument against this would be that publishers are very familiar with this kind of behavior and anticipate it. The cost of second hand sales and people sharing the product are factored into the price since it's a natural part of the market. Second hand sales are also regulated, still pose a cost to the consumer which has to be weighed in relation to the product, and follow the economic relation of supply-and-demand. There are no "online piracy" protection laws or regulations, and since the product is free, it represents an unpredictable loss as a result.

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October 28, 2014 1:16:30 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Wow. Moral relativism at its best.

To quote Dr. Buddy Rydell: "Jibber jabber jibber jabbering, mumbo jumbo, denial, key-key-key-key-key-key!"

I say this not to judge you, Derracs, but rather piracy--or "copyright infringement."

First, just because the Supreme Court said it isn't theft, doesn't mean it isn't. It may not be criminal in the US, but it remains wrong. The very definition of "infringement" should make this obvious--when is "the action of breaking the terms of an agreement" or "violation" (specifically within this context) right? The act itself--not the potential outcome.

In your reply to happybjorn, you said, "Arguments are dismissed with facts and counter-points, not with biased opinions on morality and what constitutes "good" overall. Let us take the most obvious example, the fact that I pirated GC2. You would argue, through a warped sense of justice and an immature understanding of morality, that I am a horrible person for downloading the game. What was the result? I bought it on a steam sale a few months later, and I am now a proud Elite Founder of Galactic Civilizations 3."

Now, I don't know if you're a horrible person or not, but that has no bearing on whether the action was right or wrong. And your reply there is self-defeating. You call his opinion of morality "biased" then in the next sentence call his sense of justice "warped" and his understanding of morality "immature." Of course, that is in your very own biased opinion of morality and justice.

The ends don't justify the means. Violating Stardock's (or anyone else's) property, intellectual or otherwise, is wrong, regardless the outcome. Anyone that says otherwise may be entitled to that opinion, but their perspective is "warped" and "immature," selfish, and morally indefensible.

If it were your property, I wonder if you'd feel differently if someone "misappropriated" it. Would you thank the "infringer" for "misappropriating" your property?

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October 28, 2014 2:20:32 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I knew someone was probably going to bring this up when I wrote that. While everything that you said is true, my statements are taken a bit out of context. My response is directed at a very particular comment. Happybjorn said "Quite easily dismissed actually," as if simply saying that dismissed the argument by itself. It was followed up with two claims but no support. While he claimed my evidence didn't support my stance, he did not even bother to mention what stance or which evidence he was referring to.

The purpose of my follow up was to say the belief that [something] is always bad, and can only result in negative consequences, is an immature perspective. I then gave the example of my experience with GC2, not in an attempt to prove piracy was "good" in nature, but to argue that in at least that one instance there appeared to be a positive outcome. It was meant as a challenge to his blanket statement regarding morality.

All opinions on morality are biased. While my opinion may be in question, I am at least willing to examine and discuss my views.

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October 28, 2014 2:32:47 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Pirating is wrong, period. I don't do it and don't support people that do it.

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October 28, 2014 5:00:11 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Derracs,

All opinions on morality are biased. While my opinion may be in question, I am at least willing to examine and discuss my views.

And I can certainly appreciate that. Also, while I disagree with what I understand of your position on morality (and piracy), I appreciate the fact that you've communicated in a respectful, thoughtful, and level-headed manner.

Also, DARCA, thanks for the obviously thought-provoking OP

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October 28, 2014 6:39:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The stance I was referring to should have been obvious (it was the only one mentioned at that point), it would have been redundant to specify.  None of the evidence you provided supported that stance, so specifics would have, again, been redundant (a blanket claim of non sequiturial nonsense in other words).  However, if examples would help, please pick one (or two or three) of your points to make example(s) of.

Also, I wasn't making a blanket statement about morality.  It was an allusion to virtue ethics.

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October 28, 2014 8:02:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Stealing is stealing.  Period.  (Unless its a loaf of bread to keep from starving, or squatting in an abandoned structure to keep from freezing to death.)

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October 28, 2014 7:07:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So then you meant to write...

 

Stealing is stealing?  Period?

 

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October 28, 2014 9:29:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

For me, theft is theft, unless it is required to save a life. Survival trumps private property rights.

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December 5, 2014 4:02:24 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I think there is no debating the immorality of piracy. It is self evident since it deprives people of their livelihood.

You can however debate the level of the offense as opposed to standard theft. The clear difference being loss of property that the original owner will no longer have access to as opposed to loss of "potential" income.

On a more pragmatic level, you can also consider the pirate a potential future customer if through use of the pirate product you convince them to buy it once they can afford it. This usually applies to students/kids/teens who have no income or parents willing to buy software for them. There is no potential income present there, but if in the long run you can convince them of the quality of your products, when they grow up to have disposable income of their own, they will be more likely to buy it. That kid learning to use a pirated photoshop will want to buy it when they become an actual graphics artist. Sure they can use the educational versions but how many kids do you know will do the right thing if they can benefit and not get caught.

With that practical approach, the best way to defeat piracy is to make great products and most of all, (more my concern as a paying customer) make sure you don't harass your paying customers in your quest to defeat the none-paying ones. It is self-defeating. Case in point, anti-piracy measures that require keeping the CD in the drive which is really annoying and can destroy the product especially in a day and age when online activation is standard. Other practical methods to fight piracy include frequent updates, decent support, building a community around the product and adding an online component (multi-player for games or download additional content and online features for apps).

I remember having a similar discussion with my cable provider who were forcing use of their proprietary receiver with customized decryption simply to prevent satellite TV piracy thereby preventing customers from using their own receivers with advanced features like DVR etc... I was saying, I don't care what the pirates are doing. I'm a paying customer. Stop punishing me for people who won't pay you anyway!

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December 5, 2014 7:00:15 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Derracs,

Note: Just to clear this up a bit, piracy is called "copyright infringement." It is not criminal, it is almost always civil in nature. If the court finds you guilty, then you are ordered to pay statutory damages, actual damages, and/or for loss in profits. The supreme court has also made it clear that piracy is not considered theft, it is copyright infringement, but I suppose these things are all a matter of semantics.

Please don't argue 'semantics' here...not on a site managed and owned by a software company.

Copyright theft is called that because that is what it is....theft.

If you wish to espouse an alternate ethos you will need to do it elsewhere...hosted by and paid for by someone who is NOT exposed to 'copyright theft'.

'Semantics' is the child's excuse for justification of an erstwhile criminal activity.

If you feel it is your God-given right to be outside common law you can be accommodated via an IP ban.

It's such a 'free world' it's your choice entirely...

[He smiles. knowingly].

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December 5, 2014 7:39:57 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I think the issue of "I'm tired of/don't like this game, I'll give it to my friend/sell it on Ebay/Trademe/someother website" is dealt with by the purchase price paid by the original purchaser - or if it's not it should be. I know the music industry has for decades built in to it's selling price that Person A will pay $20.00 to buy Album 2, will get sick of it and sell it via Second Hand Record Store/Auction Website/personal interaction with friend/family member (who he/she will probably give it to for free), or won't get sick of it and will recommend it to friend/family member who'll tape/copy Album 2. And the cycle goes on maybe a third or even forth time. Either way, Music Industry only gets $20 for 2 albums but it knew that it was a possibility it'd lose out on that second "Sale" (2 people have the album now, only 1 paid them for it), hence the $20 price to start with.

As I say, the gaming industry/game makers/etc should have factored that in their pricing.

The issue for me with piracy is the beginning intent - different from what I describe earlier: Person A saying I want this album/game/whatever and I'm not going to pay for it. I'm going to avoid all the websites/stores etc and try and get this thing for nothing. Which, in a way, is stupid if you want to put a price on the time involved in getting that thing free as opposed to paying for it (ie Googling/searching for a torrent that has what you want, subscribing to it, starting the download, realising halfway through that the download speed is pathetic, stopping the download, going back to searching for a torrent etc....) Also (as someone who's never done that, not out of virtue entirely, also a worry I'll end up in the situation I've just described) I wonder if there's an issue with quality (like those pirated films recorded by someone in the cinema's phone which is constantly moving...)

Not sure what game developers can do - refuse to release any DLC to anyone without verifiable payment? Make the game unmoddable to anyone without verifiable payment? Both of which would probably cause more trouble than piracy would ie it would put a lot of people off buying the game in the first place...

 

 

 

 

 

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December 5, 2014 8:13:58 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Quoting Jafo,


Quoting Derracs,

Note: Just to clear this up a bit, piracy is called "copyright infringement." It is not criminal, it is almost always civil in nature. If the court finds you guilty, then you are ordered to pay statutory damages, actual damages, and/or for loss in profits. The supreme court has also made it clear that piracy is not considered theft, it is copyright infringement, but I suppose these things are all a matter of semantics.




Please don't argue 'semantics' here...not on a site managed and owned by a software company.

Copyright theft is called that because that is what it is....theft.

If you wish to espouse an alternate ethos you will need to do it elsewhere...hosted by and paid for by someone who is NOT exposed to 'copyright theft'.

'Semantics' is the child's excuse for justification of an erstwhile criminal activity.

If you feel it is your God-given right to be outside common law you can be accommodated via an IP ban.

It's such a 'free world' it's your choice entirely...

[He smiles. knowingly].

 

Too right. Enough with 'semantics'. Theft is theft.

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December 5, 2014 10:03:03 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Just one question.

 

After  you got GC2, and spent the time to learn to play it, and actually enjoyed the game (I presume, or you wouldn't have gone through the learning curve) did you then bother to go back and PAY for a legit copy?   

 

Unless I missed you didn't mention it.

 

Stealing is stealing.

 

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December 6, 2014 8:58:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cauldyth,

You're advocating committing a criminal act.  I'd be surprised if that weren't against the forum rules.

 

 

It's only a criminal act because those in power are strong enough to bribe it into the laws. There were times when saying that there is no god was also a criminal act, one punishable by death. Laws are not expressions of some categorical imperative, but rather a written form of will of those who wield the power. 

 

Smoking a cigarette is legal, while smoking a marijuana joint is a crime in most countries. Some countries will punish you for kissing a girl in the street.

 

Incidentally, publishing a buggy, badly functioning or unfinished game under false marketing claims is not a crime. 

 

Stealing is indeed stealing, but copyright infringement is not stealing. Nor it is "pirating", or "incest", or whatever bad name you would like to give it. It's copyright infringement. 

 

In any case, censorship never solves anything. 

 

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December 7, 2014 3:00:12 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I wonder if you've ever been incarcerated...hmmm.

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