Feature suggestion: Track races of planet citizens

By on April 23, 2014 6:17:58 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Austenite2

Join Date 04/2010
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Quoting Austenite2,

Feature suggestion: Master of Orion 3 had this feature where the different races of citizens were tracked, and had different bonuses/abilities and could colonise different classes of planets.  A diverse civilisation had significant advantages because it could colonise more planets, and focus research/trade/war more effectively.  There were significant challenges with morale and interplanetary migration, of course.

The whole time I played Gal Civ 2, I was thinking "this is what a modern MOO looks like, the only thing it's missing is citizen races.  I hope they put it into Gal Civ 3, if it ever gets made".

 

Since I posted this, I've been keeping up with forum posts and have realised this thread is posted in the wrong area for such a suggestion, so thought I should make a specific thread to catch this suggestion specifically.

I also noted a comment in the first dev stream video which pre-dated this suggestion, which went something like: "we spend a lot of time discussing suggestions that don't really feel like they fit in Gal Civ".  Still, I feel that given the importance of Influence and that taking planets from your opponents in a number of ways is such a core part of the game, it still feels like Gal Civ is missing this mechanic.

 

Quoting Rhonin_the_wizard,

Speaking of conquest by influence, one of the things that bothered me a little in GC2 was no matter if the planet was colonized by me, it defected to me, I invaded it or bought it, there was no difference. Any plans on making this different in GC3?  

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April 23, 2014 6:39:43 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

It's a good idea to put citizen races. It would give more of an impression that we are living in a galactic community rather than merely playing a game.

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April 23, 2014 7:14:49 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I would like this if...I could kill the undesirables! Making my race spread across the galaxy and having primary access to resources is my primary goal not some other race. This was in civ but it was more of a cultural indicator, so for who it may concern make sure it is something besides be more numbers we have to look at. Make it creative.

Bty. Hë Drassiem ieo na dat an EVieell pyill!!! No I won't translate it.

 

DARCA.

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April 23, 2014 7:15:20 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

We've discussed this before, and it's generally accepted that this would get overly-complicated on the bigger maps with dozens of players and races. That being said, I would like this in some fashion.

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April 23, 2014 7:57:45 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting ParagonRenegade,

We've discussed this before, and it's generally accepted that this would get overly-complicated on the bigger maps with dozens of players and races. That being said, I would like this in some fashion.

It doesn't have to become over-complicated. Just create a race percentage counter and a distinct Civ-style cultural/citizenship counter. If these two percentages did not interact with each other in any way and/or it was assumed that citizenship by empire is uniformly distributed between races present as changed by some minor species-affinity modifiers, then a lot of problems will be resolved.

I think a lot of the "complexity" of the idea stems from the fact that there haven't been many specifics proposed on how the idea would function in practice. Once those specifics were proposed I believe a lot of the discrepancies would reduce significantly.

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April 23, 2014 8:18:00 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Wer900,

It doesn't have to become over-complicated. Just create a race percentage counter and a distinct Civ-style cultural/citizenship counter. If these two percentages did not interact with each other in any way and/or it was assumed that citizenship by empire is uniformly distributed between races present as changed by some minor species-affinity modifiers, then a lot of problems will be resolved.

I think a lot of the "complexity" of the idea stems from the fact that there haven't been many specifics proposed on how the idea would function in practice. Once those specifics were proposed I believe a lot of the discrepancies would reduce significantly.

If there is a race-percentage counter, then it will have to be able to tell you this information for dozens of species, possibly hundreds.

 

It needs to scale well, or the venture is doomed from the outset

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April 23, 2014 10:00:02 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting ParagonRenegade,


Quoting Wer900, reply 4
It doesn't have to become over-complicated. Just create a race percentage counter and a distinct Civ-style cultural/citizenship counter. If these two percentages did not interact with each other in any way and/or it was assumed that citizenship by empire is uniformly distributed between races present as changed by some minor species-affinity modifiers, then a lot of problems will be resolved.

I think a lot of the "complexity" of the idea stems from the fact that there haven't been many specifics proposed on how the idea would function in practice. Once those specifics were proposed I believe a lot of the discrepancies would reduce significantly.

If there is a race-percentage counter, then it will have to be able to tell you this information for dozens of species, possibly hundreds.

 

It needs to scale well, or the venture is doomed from the outset

Yes, that's very true.

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April 23, 2014 11:51:44 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

There will likely be 20 or so races tops after all the expansions. How could there be hundreds of races that have to be made with unique tech trees?

I like leaving the hard parts to the devs when it comes to idea shaping most of the time.

 

DARCA.

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April 24, 2014 9:55:44 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

@Wer90: I am with the Pro group here. After playing GalCiv2 extensively it always seemed to be a missing part that missed races were not even given a nod. The races are so very different at the beginning of the game with the racial bonuses, yet when they join your 'empire' they suddenly become 'your' race.  I haven't modded GalCiv at all but from other games here is a whiteboard level concept of how it could be done and what might come from it:

A basic would be a simple bar on the planet screen fills with the banner color of the race based on percentage of planetary population. To get specifics, you could then have a tooltip show up when you hover over it that Shows the top 3-5 races by percentage with all the rest lumped into 'other'. So the tooltip might look something like:

Terren Alliance 54%

Dregin Race 21%

Altarian Resistance 4%

Other 21%

For the truly interested party, we can go further and via double click on the bar it could take you to the planetary details page (that I only looked at perhaps three times in GalCiv 2) where the demographics can really be laid out to include % for all races and the number of people/things that correlates with.

As for how the multiple population types would grow, well, that was already there in GalCiv2 in some form. There is most likely a population growth algorithm in the game that factors in planet type, racial bonuses, and technology/building/planet bonuses. I would suggest as a starting point to use the base growth rate of the species without any tech/building help and add a -25%ish base growth penalty to any race not of the players (because really, this is now a planet owner by [insert players race] and we get preference in breeding). Perhaps expand on this a bit to have a bigger/smaller negative based on the race relations (ie. arch enemy races would have a BIG problem with each other while two neutral races really don’t care)

Just having that, the information and basic population growth, would truly help my immersion to turn it less into a fun game to a immersive world.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some additional features that I would have loved to have in GalCiv2:

Upon taking a planet have an option of how to 'deal with' the survivors that affects the players alignment and provides a bonus. In example:

"My lord, with the help of the dissidents from your propaganda efforts, we have taken the planet. What shall we do with the survivors?"

1) Reward them with full citizenship, we welcome those that support us (minor bonus based on race involved/number survivors; ie. iconion refuge population means planet gets a bonus to science)

2) Very good, however we cannot forget the crimes of the people. Place them under arrest and let them work to atone (production bonus, bigger negative hit on secondary race population growth.)

3) Excellent, however they are inferior and have the intelligence of farm animals. Luckily, they are delicious and the farms are empty. (all secondary races are removed, population growth bonus.)

Also, it would be nice if current events impacted planets. A complex system can be created with some simple rules. this could be made more complex just be adding more 'simple' rules to dictate how each individual race would handle the situation. IE the Dregin population doesn't care about being at war with other Dregin as much (or at all) when compared to say the Iconians who care very much about you killing other Iconians.

Change to how 'approval rating' of a planet is done

Proposed rule examples:

War discontent: Being at war with a faction will cause citizens that share a race with that factions primary to be disapproving

Alliance Approval: Opposite of above

War Crimes: Doing really mean things will cause a big spike of dissatisfaction among citizens of your empire that share a race.

Change to How Planetary Defense is calculated: Add the equation for 'soldier strength' of every race to every planet and have it be multiplied by the population % with result be the sum of the equation. I do not believe that is too far off from how it is currently calculated.

Immigration/Emigration. Influence attracts people from factions that have lower inflluence.  Population growth bonus to secondary races on planets near borders becoming smaller the furthur in you go.  Again, this would most likely be done via algoritm and build on everything else. If population actually means more then just tax farming and meat shields for a planet this would make influance an interesting sabotage mechanic.

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April 24, 2014 2:11:05 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

You'll find an encouraging conversation on the subject here.

It can work, it can scale well, you just have to do it right and I think there's plenty to be gained!

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April 24, 2014 4:59:10 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

@DLWildcat: I would like to modify your idea slightly. There should be three sliders present for race, culture, and citizenship. Race would of course define how one would have to feed the population or what racial abilities one would have access to, while culture would be determined by the influence mix on a planet as modified by trade, conquests, etc. Citizenship would be more rigid than culture but would gradually tend to it; citizenship would determine how many residents would serve in the military of a given empire. So with all of these factors considered, an individual could be a Terran genetically, but follow Torian customs as a loyal Iconian citizen.

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April 25, 2014 1:14:20 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

@SeraKX Thanks! good reading there.

@Wer900: I agree with you, that would be fun. There are a 101 ways to implement it, and in truth I would be happier having ANY type of way to see this info! I was just trying to think how I would make the feature as bare bones and easy to implement as possible; an information only ratio bar was what came to my mind.  Would I love something more in depth? YES!!! But I will not be holding my breath.

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April 25, 2014 5:57:35 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Honestly I think this suggestion falls under the category of things that look great on paper but don’t work well when implemented.

I can see how it would be fun to be able to track % of the planets population that belonged to each species, but once you get into the complexity of trying to direct the different species to maximise use of their bonuses it quickly becomes a game of very complex micromanagement.

Another factor if by having a species diverse civilization you can maximise use of all species traits, species specific tech trees and bonuses for the initial species you chose to play pretty quickly stop making sense or being relevant.

Over all Moo3 tried to implement many things that looked great on paper, but what they ended up with was a game that was I’m sorry to say broken and not fun and I followed the development of that for a long time and had high hopes, indeed it’s what bought me to GalCiv2.

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April 26, 2014 6:46:03 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Thanks econumdrum1!

Interesting feedback about Moo3, with the opposite outcome to me....  once I mastered it I thought it was one of the best features.  Will be interesting to see if anything results!

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April 29, 2014 7:42:06 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Well, so long as it is done cleanly to minimize micromanagement while adding new avenues for gameplay, I am okay with it. For this reason, having a race should give access to certain techs that are race-specific, having a culture should give access to culture-specific techs, and having foreign citizens should spread your influence to foreign lands but do not give techs. Other effects could of course be added, but as far as techs and racial abilities are concerned this should be the basis.

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April 29, 2014 8:23:14 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I have suggested this as well under "population management" I too want to be able to dictate how the species on my planet are treated.

http://forums.galciv3.com/450213/page/1/#3421757

Maybe I want Altarians on my planets, but want to brutally enslave the Drengin filth, or exterminate them outright from my planets.

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May 5, 2014 7:26:44 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Indeed. Citizen races should spread through influence, which should no longer be transmitted through meaningless "influence starbases" but through trade and population flows, internal and external.

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May 5, 2014 8:22:30 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I REALLY want this allow me to slaughter and enslave in some way, as I've always wanted. lol.

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May 5, 2014 11:04:28 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I do not necessarily support this idea. It is needlessly complicated and I only see game mechanics at its raw state. With 100 different races / species in the game it is plausible that the most populous race is 1% of the planet. Even if they do not support the 100 races, it removes the fact that my civilization does not label other species and treats all species equally. We don't even go as far as saying you are not my species. There is no need for the labels beyond cultural follower and rebel rouser. I always assume that the citizenry is a diverse set of species creating what is the supreme galactic empire. The bonuses received from races are really the way culture is developed, and the mentality of that culture. I do not have to be Chinese to follow and emulate the culture of China. I do not need to be Japanese to emulate the culture of Japan and the idealogies of that culture. I do not need to be American to idealize the culture of the US and follow the culture there.

Separating the planet as such will create a mountain of paperwork. Have fun doing this with 300 plus planets you may control on a huge map. Might be fun with the first 100, but it would get tedious as the citizenry would be changing depending on breeding rates of different species and mortality rates of those species. Making it too much of a big grey pot in the end.

Could this be fun, sure it can be. Should this be involved in the game, only if they fold it into the entire game which would require a rewrite of quite a few things. I tend to think of the Galactic Civlizations as not being a Species dominated thing, but more of a collection of species emulating the leaders culture and spreading it across the galaxy. Unrest / Culture percentage takes care of all the citizens that are not following your doctrine.

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May 6, 2014 12:44:26 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting parrottmath,

a. With 100 different races / species in the game it is plausible that the most populous race is 1% of the planet.

 

b. I always assume that the citizenry is a diverse set of species creating what is the supreme galactic empire. The bonuses received from races are really the way culture is developed, and the mentality of that culture. I do not have to be Chinese to follow and emulate the culture of China. I do not need to be Japanese to emulate the culture of Japan and the idealogies of that culture. I do not need to be American to idealize the culture of the US and follow the culture there.

c. Separating the planet as such will create a mountain of paperwork. Have fun doing this with 300 plus planets you may control on a huge map. Might be fun with the first 100, but it would get tedious as the citizenry would be changing depending on breeding rates of different species and mortality rates of those species. Making it too much of a big grey pot in the end.



d. Could this be fun, sure it can be.

 

a. did I miss a post by someone at SD saying something about 100 civ/races? This is the second time I heard it. A insane amount of planet owners would have to be very close to each other to have 1%, I imagined the civ 4 method where it was only local.

b. YEAAAAA! About time someone else said race traits are a cultural mind set of a civ. Even the bonuses sound like that now thankfully. I couldn't agree more.

c. Maybe your vision of this is convoluted. It doesn't have to be boring or complicated.

d. yes it can be fun and realistic, the "how" its implemented another issue though. It will probably end up on that list of future ideas for the game as expansions and dlc for a few years. But we will get it for free eventually as founders, lol. this was a great deal.

 

DARCA

 

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May 6, 2014 6:47:37 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting DARCA1213,
a. did I miss a post by someone at SD saying something about 100 civ/races? This is the second time I heard it.

Frogboy mentioned it here and here.

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May 6, 2014 9:42:30 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Mt first thought when reading this is how many cool options this could give for espionage. I mean a Terran spying on a Dregin might stand out a little making it harder but a Dregin spying on a Dregin would add a bonus etc. Plus this would make having a diverse population have an added effect or having a singular race more secure.

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May 8, 2014 6:02:11 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

This could be a harsh way to breakdown population.

As I understand, Ideologies is also intended as a way for malicious races to cooperate with one another as they also need to trade! Benevolent are expected to get along with other benevolent races and Pragmatism will more likely form alliance with other pragmatic.

 

So I would split down population into only 6 categories.

Your race: split into ideology. Even among Drengin, there must be a small fraction of them that is actually pragmatic or even benevolent.

And one categorie for other races: also split into ideology.

         Drengins     (70%): 57% malicious; 11% pragmatic; 2% benevolent

         Xenos          (30%): 10% malicious; 3% pragmatic; 7% benevolent

Of course, a pie graph could be used.

My logic: this is still a game, and I agree with the fact that knowing 2.1% of my planet are human is not so important, especially if we actually get to 100+ race in a map.

On the other hand, Ideology can become relevant.

I guess there will still be election and special resolution voted when declaring war, alliance, etc. So if your population feel more pragmatic, and you are declaring war to another pragmatic race, they will vote against you whether they are Human or Iconian.

This would also be compatible with those great idea about genocide, slave and citizenship option when conquering other worlds.

Tourism/immigration could contribute as well to this.

 

About gaining other races ability, I don’t think it’s a good idea because the starting race would become a lot less significant in late game or completely outclass xenophobic race that just want slave or extermination.

It could lead to player always starting with a race that as better bonus in early game knowing that they will eventually gain all other race’s late game bonus.

Hope I make sense!

 

Mr. Kurt

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May 20, 2014 6:36:43 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Yeah, I think that's a good idea. On previous games, there's a sense that people on a conquered or defected planet just sort of "become human", which is kind of annoying. And as well as the advantages of a species-diverse civilisation, to the extent that different species start living in the same communities, tracking citizen species could open up an opportunity for there to be interesting challenges in terms of accommodating different physiologies and neurologies.

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May 20, 2014 7:25:57 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

As fad as gaining other races abilities I think it could be done without making it overpowered. 

Any race whose  population represents greater then 60% of your population you get 100% racial bonus

any race whose population represents  60-40 % of your population you get 50 % racial bonus. 

And if you have no races greater than 40 % then there should be some special bonus for mixed races 

 

so the next question is what other effects would there be for mixed race planets 

should there be a diplomacy bonus if a large enough portion of my opponents population is of my race 

would these planets be more or less susceptible to culture flip?  ( did the people move here because they wanted to escape to a better lif or because they got a good deal and wanted to bring a better life with them? ) 

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May 20, 2014 8:36:37 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I could see this work if,lets say,Dregin give you combat bonuses,and the super spy race giving better spying.Also,if this were put in game,maybe a hybrid percentage.

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