Do you miss the dual build Queue? What about having the Starports separated from the planets?

By on March 29, 2014 4:02:46 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

EvilMaxWar

Join Date 10/2007
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Founders, what are your opinions so far in the dual vs Single queue debate? It was a hot topic for a little while during the pre-alpha but I have not heard much about it recently.

I have mixed feelings on the subject.

For one thing, I feel like the game can play fine with only one queue. After all, most other 4x, including excellent ones, have only 1 queue.

But on the other hand, I really like the dual queue in GalCiv II. I think that it contributes greatly to the game uniqueness and losing it feels like losing part of what makes GalCiv unique.

When I was playing the Alpha I did not run into any real problems with having a single queue. But then, most of the best uses I would make of the dual queue system come in later game with large empires and big wars going on.  Small maps and pushover AI do not call for that.

 

Stardock said that a planetary dual queue like in GalCiv II would likely not happen, but Brad hinted about possibly making the starports separate from the planet instead, effectively restoring a dual queue system, but in a different way.

I kinda like this idea and I made this thread mainly to discuss about that. I wonder how hard it would be to implement seamlessly in the current game design, while keeping the benefits I attribute to the GalCiv II style dual queue.

From StarDock's own definition of an Alpha, it seems this kind of thing would need to be decided during the Alpha.

 

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March 29, 2014 4:09:09 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

How is Starports separate from planets not a dual queue?

 

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March 29, 2014 4:21:37 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I don't like single queue. It doesn't really make sense from a realism perspective. Why can't spaceships be built concurrently with planetary improvements? 

If it were up to me I would allow multiple starports to be built just like any other improvement. Then you could have 3 or 4 ships building simultaneously.  

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March 29, 2014 4:22:05 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Alstein,

How is Starports separate from planets not a dual queue?

 

It is still a dual queue but implemented significantly differently than in GalCiv II, I will try to find the exact FrogBoy quote I was thinking about.

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March 29, 2014 4:36:32 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting EvilMaxWar,
It is still a dual queue but implemented significantly differently than in GalCiv II, I will try to find the exact FrogBoy quote I was thinking about.

Looking for this?

Quoting Frogboy,

My view is that by the time the BETA hits (this Summer) we'll have a pretty good POV on the queue.  But having a single queue, so far, has made the game flow a lot lot better.

I doubt, however, no matter what, that you'll get planets having two queues. More likely, we'd make the star port exist on the main map itself where it would take resources from the planet it was attached to.

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March 29, 2014 4:37:10 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I miss the dual queue 

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March 29, 2014 4:41:07 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

At the moment, given the AI the dual que hasn't presented itself at the moment. The game seems fine, but it is not slow because I can rush ships, which I do. In fact, given the amount of rewards and money I have, I only buy ships at the moment.

Its too hard to say one way or the other at the moment. I'm thinking Brad is right in saying that wait for the Beta before we rule this out entirely.

I for one like the dual que especially when the game gets closer to balanced with money and becomes more difficult to just buy our way out of stuff. Also, I've not encountered an issue there because of the anomalies giving me all of my combat ships for free. Again, balance will definitely demonstrate whether this will be viable at the moment.

The pace of the game also demonstrates whether there should be dual ques or single ques.

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March 29, 2014 4:48:41 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting NelsMonsterX2,

I don't like single queue. It doesn't really make sense from a realism perspective. Why can't spaceships be built concurrently with planetary improvements?

Why can't it build two farms at the same time on the same planet? Do we only have a single construction unit in the whole planet??? Not realistic!

With the current AI, a single queue or two hundred queues wouldn't make a difference. Not having tried multiplayer, cannot comment on that aspect. That said, so far I haven't missed the double queue. Having starport as some kind of station, could be quite nice though.

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March 29, 2014 4:57:41 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Thank you Gaunathor, I slightly altered my post to reflect more accurately what Brad said.

I agree with you guys that it is currently hard to decide how useful or not a dual queue would truly be considering the state of the Alpha. 

 

And yeah, realism should not get in the way of Gameplay imho. Several starports per planet, even though realist, would be kind of silly from a gameplay perspective. imho.

 

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March 29, 2014 5:06:14 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Once the game advances to its next iteration I think I would dearly miss the dual-build queues. I loved how you had to wrestle whether to build a starport on a planet or dedicate it to research, culture, or wealth, and then even if you built a starport you could decide to focus on social, military, or research whilst balancing resources depending on the micro/meso/macro environment at the time. I personally would love to see the separate off-planet starport as the (advanced) starship queue, I can vaguely recall something ingame alluding to this already (can't remember which tech off the top of my head). The next question would be whether an advanced off-planet starport would be vulnerable to attack/raids in which case would it need to become part of starbases (and have in-built defenses etc).

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March 29, 2014 7:15:00 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Col_Silvermane,

Once the game advances to its next iteration I think I would dearly miss the dual-build queues. I loved how you had to wrestle whether to build a starport on a planet or dedicate it to research, culture, or wealth, and then even if you built a starport you could decide to focus on social, military, or research whilst balancing resources depending on the micro/meso/macro environment at the time. I personally would love to see the separate off-planet starport as the (advanced) starship queue, I can vaguely recall something ingame alluding to this already (can't remember which tech off the top of my head). The next question would be whether an advanced off-planet starport would be vulnerable to attack/raids in which case would it need to become part of starbases (and have in-built defenses etc).

 

I am with you with most of what you said here. I think I would grow to miss the dual queue in GalCiv 3 as the state of the game advances. If only because the way I play GalCiv 2 makes use of it.

 

At this point I am interested in how a separate ShipYard would be implemented. There are many nice possibilities to it but some potential caveats.

One thing I would like to point out is that I do not see how this could be implemented in the current Production wheel without adding a new slider. For some reason I have the feeling that StarDock wants to try to avoid adding more sliders to that screen. The problem is that as much as the production wheel is great, fun and easy to use,  the design is hard limited to 3 options.

To add a fourth parameter You would then need something like that: ( Imagine a slider just bellow the wheel that gives the percentage of production that is sent to spaceport instead of social production.)

I made a demo by Pasting the slider from GalCiv II in using MS paint

 

Furthermore, a Separate Shipyard that you see on the map could presumably be attacked and destroyed. That could expand the strategic depth of the game but also open the door to some Checkmate style of victory. Which might be a bit cheesy when pulled off.

Imagine a player gets rushed and have his starport destroyed and has no military ship currently out. That is basically Checkmate GG.  Unless some of the more basic type of ships could also be built on planets, Say Tiny, small and cargo Hull can be built on both planet and Spaceyard, but bigger hulls only in Space. 

I am really curious about how the separate StarPort could be implemented. Please share your ideas on the subject and of course if StarDock pitches in too that could be great

 

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March 29, 2014 7:25:46 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Not really.Most 4x games only have 1 queue and it cuts down on micromanagement each turn.

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March 29, 2014 7:35:55 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting EvilMaxWar,
Imagine a player gets rushed and have his starport destroyed and has no military ship currently out. That is basically Checkmate GG.  Unless some of the more basic type of ships could also be built on planets, Say Tiny, small and cargo Hull can be built on both planet and Spaceyard, but bigger hulls only in Space. 

I would agree that all planets can build the more basic ships / only makes sense. The starport should be more like a starbase you place out there with a constructor. Then with upgrades can build large ship hulls / has defensive capabilities / increase the automated construction speed in space. It should be separate from the planet, and should be a large starbase.

Extremely large ships would have difficulty entering and leaving atmospheres, the cargo hull ships are really module ships that break apart for planetary invasion / colonization. Final assembly takes place outside the planets surface.

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March 29, 2014 7:48:46 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I like dual as I want to build buildinga and ship at a same time to save lot of my time and turns rather than one, mostly I go building first then ship if need and taken too many turns.

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March 29, 2014 8:49:58 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I really like the changes that they have implemented into the queue, but would like to see some way to allow both planet and ship building at the same time.  

 ( Imagine a slider just bellow the wheel that gives the percentage of production that is sent to spaceport instead of social production.)

This would give a way to separate the funds that are used, but still need to work some way of building a second queue.

I would agree that all planets can build the more basic ships / only makes sense. The starport should be more like a starbase you place out there with a constructor. Then with upgrades can build large ship hulls / has defensive capabilities / increase the automated construction speed in space. It should be separate from the planet, and should be a large starbase.

Extremely large ships would have difficulty entering and leaving atmospheres, the cargo hull ships are really module ships that break apart for planetary invasion / colonization. Final assembly takes place outside the planets surface.

Like others have said, this would be at least one way to get the second queue, but I would like to see some better ways to protect the starbase. If I put ships around to help support I would want to actually have a chance to use them and not get stuck with a fleet able to get past without a fight.

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March 29, 2014 9:04:25 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I like the flow with a single queue.  With dual queues, you don't always wanto keep them full.  Plus the way manufacturing gets created and used is stupidly complicated AS IS.

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March 29, 2014 9:11:13 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Wintersong,
Why can't it build two farms at the same time on the same planet? Do we only have a single construction unit in the whole planet??? Not realistic!

 

Dude, why the attack? I wasn't beating the drum of realism and demanding that a futuristic space game featuring sentient robots and strange aliens be identical in nature to the world we live in. All I said is that from a realism perspective, it seems silly that an entire planet full of billions of people can only manage to either build a farm or a ship, not both. 

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March 29, 2014 9:31:36 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I would prefer a dual production queue.  Placing the ship building queue on an orbiting space port / space dock / yada is not important to me.  However, a space port (Distant worlds style) would be very cool.  Sometimes a planet might be controlled by one side, and their space port occupied by enemy.  Interesting.  Ground combat bonus if you have control of the skies / spaceport?

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March 29, 2014 9:42:57 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I miss dual queue. A stardock separate from the planet would be ok.

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March 29, 2014 10:16:45 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I think the biggest issues I have with the system revolve around potential pacing and a feeling on inefficiency.

While I had no real issues with pacing during this first alpha iteration, It was still pretty evident to me that it will completely change the pacing of all stages of the game in comparison to GC2. Call me an old timer, but it did bother me that unless I had the money to build ships outright (which was rare in alpha admittedly) it feels like you're being artificially stunted in your ability to develop. Choosing between a farm or a colony ship for upwards of a dozen turns bothered me somewhat.

That said, I believe this issue is re-enforced by the inefficiency I mentioned earlier. I think the problem resolves not so much around a single build queue, but rather the GC2 rule that still applies to the GC3 way of queuing items. Specifically, Starports.

The construction of Starports to unlock a planet's ability to produce star-ships is a hurdle that makes the system falter. I'm fine with 1 build queue, I'm fine with having to decide between a ship or a building (as much as i get the "it's not GC2" feeling), but having to devote time to construct a Starport, just to allow me to build ships with the exact same queue feels totally inefficient and I can see leading to a pacing crawl.
I think all the problems with a single build queue would be eliminated by removing the Starport requirement. It's then MUCH less of a commitment timewise to begin constructing ships, when you already have to commit time to building them over social projects.


Though while this will alleviate the queue, I feel it detracts a GC feel. I think Starports are a pivotal part of the Sci-Fi feel of GC over, say, Civ V and to this point I really REALLY like the idea of external starports that are built on a hex near planets and can be given manufacturing points from planets in range (Think asteroids in GC2) to construct ships. Improvements to starports with constructors, plus higher populations and more colonies in range all add to the strategy of placement and development of starports.
I would imagine that you would have as many ship building star ports in space as you may have had ship building planets in GC2.


Though, then again, how do you avoid issues with losing all your starbases, and being unable to build more ships...even with 100 planets? 

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March 29, 2014 10:39:38 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Ashbery76,

Not really.Most 4x games only have 1 queue and it cuts down on micromanagement each turn.

The less micromanagement argument seems to come up the most when someone says to prefer the single queue.

Ironically I think Dual Queue actually saves you time in the longer run. That might not be true in early game but in late game my playstyle really benefits from the dual queue in term of Time economy.

I will quote myself from another post.

Quoting EvilMaxWar,

 

Here is an exemple of how Dual production queue is a great feature.

"Oh noes! The Evil Drengin just DOW on me and are coming with legions of ships. I need to shift to military production to counter them."

This scenario happened to me in my current galciv2 game.  With dual production queue, I just adjusted the sliders. I put the social production to 5% and concentrated on research and ship building. It took 2 sec to do as most of my planets are already building warships.  

 Now with a single queue you would need to manually change production in all your planets, quite Tedious.

The more I think about it, the dual queue is a good idea and is part of what I like about GalCiv2. I am 100% convinced that taking the dual queue out of Galciv2 would make it a lesser game.

Not saying the game Cannot be good without dual queue, but I like this feature.

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March 29, 2014 10:52:00 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Brad Wardell from the future: "I am glad we kept the dual queue. Why would Stardock spend time working on something the players didn't want. What would the player gain by taking that away? Did I ever say how I almost made A BIG long term mistake by making one queue and cluttering the planet screen with ships AND improvements."

I think the UI sucks right now and needs to be reorganized. back in galciv2 it was CLICK, CLICK, CLICK, SLIDE and everything was where it needed to be. I don't care how it's done, I want the queues back to normal working order. I felt with one queue with ships and improvements it didn't flow right, and I wasn't getting enough done and kept forgetting to build ships. Also the glaciv2 UI was better and easier to use, and that was though trail and err over time and player feedback. I hope this game is fated to have a similar result.

 (EDIT for MaxWars EDIT : I am just saying that it sucks in regards to its development. its new and will be better but not now, it version one.)

DARCA

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March 29, 2014 11:03:46 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

And let`s not forget that GalCiv II TOA is the 39th Highest rated PC game of all time, and 4th Highest rated 4X of all time, ( at least according to Metacritics)  and GalCiv II had dual Queues

If dual queue was a bad idea then it certainly was not bad enough to prevent the game from reaching such stellar scores. So... well... just saying  

Edit: @DARCA: While I like the GalCiv II UI, I do not think the current ALPHA GalCiv III UI sucks. I think many things are on the path to improvement with GalCiv III. And let`s keep this thread focused on the Single Vs. Dual Queue question.

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March 29, 2014 11:57:31 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I must be in the minority, because dual building was so hideously inefficient in GC2 I almost never used it - and when I did either the ship or the building was bought, not built. Sometimes both were.

Mostly I'd set a 1/39/60 and queue buildings. When I ran out of buildings all the points defaulted to the shipyard; if a new upgrade became available the planet automatically reverted to building that, then shifted back to ships again. Later in the game I'd just go 100% ships and buy any buildings I needed.

And of course most of my planets didn't have starports at all, or did for a while and then got built over.

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March 30, 2014 12:18:04 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

The big thing I miss about a dual queue is the ability to dedicate different governors to the different systems.

If we bring back a starbase/starport combo, that lets me set a whole configuration for that completely independent of anything else.

So, if I'm in a battle, I can go around and assign all my starports to be building a specific fleet configuration, without having to screw with what each particular planet is doing to develop itself.

I *much* prefer dual queues. In fact, it's one of the major annoyances I find with all the other 4X systems out there, that you're forced to chose between planet/city/whatever builder upgrades, and units.

How about a structure that dedicates X% (say 15%, and have a upgraded version that dedicate 25%) of the planet's total manufacturing to the starport?  You can build multiple of them to dedicate more to the starport, which will only allocate those resources IF something is being queued up in the starport's queue.

 

basically, I really think it's important to separate civil (planet-side) building from starship construction. It actually REDUCES micromanaging to do so.

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March 30, 2014 1:57:36 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

While I'm not having a problem with the single queue right now, I think I'll begin to miss having two queues once the AI has some teeth. Then again, they'd only have one queue as well--and so the real question, to me, is how will it affect how quickly the game progresses (pace) and how much time will be required micromanaging my colonies (ease of use).

Quoting EvilMaxWar,
With dual production queue, I just adjusted the sliders. I put the social production to 5% and concentrated on research and ship building. It took 2 sec to do as most of my planets are already building warships.

Now with a single queue you would need to manually change production in all your planets, quite Tedious.

I totally agree. Unless a mechanism can be put in place to make peace-to-wartime transitions happen without an, "oh crap, I've got to rearrange the queue on my 50 military production colonies!" moment, I suspect I will not find a single queue intuitive.

Quoting InquisitorFelix,
I think Starports are a pivotal part of the Sci-Fi feel of GC over, say, Civ V and to this point I really REALLY like the idea of external starports that are built on a hex near planets and can be given manufacturing points from planets in range (Think asteroids in GC2) to construct ships. Improvements to starports with constructors, plus higher populations and more colonies in range all add to the strategy of placement and development of starports.

These are my thoughts exactly. Instead of one planet with a starport supporting a system (or multiple systems), you could have a starport base that services and is supplied by multiple planets, using range from planet and other factors (such as modules and other starbase bonuses) to determine starport production capability. And like planets and starbases, the starport could garrison a fleet to protect it.

And not to go too far off topic, but having external, space-based starports could open up other strategic possibilities:

(This is just a crazy idea) Perhaps "deep space" starports could be constructed by building a starport and then surrounding it by economy starbases (bonus to production acting as industry supply to the starport). Or, perhaps a starbase module could function as a supply chain, extending the range at which a planet can give production points to a starport. On the one hand, such a feature could make single starports draw supply from multiple systems connected by economy starbases equipped with supply-chain modules. On the other hand, this could make "hidden" placement of starports in uninhabitable regions of space a viable strategy, as your opponents would have to try to figure out where and how to eliminate your fleet production.

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