Founders discussion topic: Colony control

By on December 26, 2013 3:34:28 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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As GalCiv III founders know, the old slider-based economic controls are gone. Dead. No longer alive.

In their place is what can be described as a production dial where the player determines what they want their people to focus on: Wealth, Research, Manufacturing.

Now, here is the discussion topic:

The current plan is that the the production wheel sets the civilization default with the ability of players to override it on a planet by planet basis. This allows players who want to micro-manage their planets to do so without forcing them to do so if they don't want to.  The question is: What level of per planet tinkering do you think the game should have and why?  

As a reminder, please read this: http://forums.galciv3.com/451045

Our current plan is to let people tinker with the production priorities on a per planet basis if they choose with a global one setting the default for planets. But we aren't married to this and hence the discussion.

I should also point out that this has a major change from the previous 2 GalCiv games: There is no such thing as production waste in GalCiv III. Population provides the base production of a planet and planetary improvements provide % bonuses in particular areas based on that.  By contrast, in GalCiv II, a factory might provide 5 IP. In GalCiv III, same factory would provide say a 5% production bonus with the production stemming from the planet's population.

It ends up being a much much nicer system and a lot less clunky late game.

 

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December 26, 2013 3:46:48 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Wasn't there something similar in GC2? Where you could select if a planet should focus on Military, Social or Research?

The only thing I would want is an easy way to input values for the dial. Say I could just write what the percentages should be. Could I for example set so that 10% goes to Wealth, 40% to Manufacturing and 50% to Research?

Also, seeing only Manufacturing makes me suspect that planets will not be able to build ships and buildings at the same time, not sure if I'll like this.

Quoting ,
I should also point out that this has a major change from the previous 2 GalCiv games: There is no such thing as production waste in GalCiv III. Population provides the base production of a planet and planetary improvements provide % bonuses in particular areas based on that.  By contrast, in GalCiv II, a factory might provide 5 IP. In GalCiv III, same factory would provide say a 5% production bonus with the production stemming from the planet's population.

Sounds good to me.

 

 

 

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December 26, 2013 4:03:31 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

A per planet basis is nice, but there are several planets that function the same way in many aspects.

I have a group of research planets that I want to research all at a higher status than produce things, but then I've got economic hubs where I would prefer to have them at a higher money making aspect.

So, it would be nicer for the player to set up profiles for a planet that sets all these aspects and you can choose that planet to use that profile and then you need only change 4 profiles to edit all your planets in the empire (or a per-planet micro basis). Also, when looking at the production wheel, I know my OCD will make me spend time trying to get precisely the 33 / 33 / 34 number or maybe the 20 / 50 / 30 number. Will there be an option to say "Lock" in a number, or type in the first two percentages.

Not sure if it would be better for people to create their own profiles or better to set up prefab ones centered around production, economics, and research, and the default planets.

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December 26, 2013 4:11:00 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Seems sensible. Novice players will never use it, and an empire wide setting is great for them. (Also like the new UI for it, incidentally.)

As you get more advanced and specialize planets, you probably don't want your awesome research planet shifting to a production focus even if you're going to a war footing and mass producing ships. So being able to override that for the individual planet is a handy thing to have.

If it is implemented, it would be nice to have some way on the empire/economic overview screen to see which planets aren't following the empire focus so I don't forget about it later.

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December 26, 2013 4:21:55 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I should also point out that this has a major change from the previous 2 GalCiv games: There is no such thing as production waste in GalCiv III. Population provides the base production of a planet and planetary improvements provide % bonuses in particular areas based on that. By contrast, in GalCiv II, a factory might provide 5 IP. In GalCiv III, same factory would provide say a 5% production bonus with the production stemming from the planet's population.

Interesting change from the occasional GC2 base-population-but-insane-production model where a planet with large research/production bonuses was better off with only base population, since space needed for farms and morale were better spent on an additional labs/factories. I think it will increase the productive vs. money planets divide more by class rather than bonuses, though. Not sure how I feel about that. I kinda liked the fact that my "forge" world could be a class 12ish planet that I happened to find a +60% ship power colonization event on.

There is no such thing as production waste in GalCiv III.

So "wealth" production is simply the lack of any sort of other production? It is "just collecting taxes and shipping them off world since we're not doing anything here" mode? That is what I had assumed, but it's nice to have it confirmed.

The current plan is that the the production wheel sets the civilization default with the ability of players to override it on a planet by planet basis. This allows players who want to micro-manage their planets to do so without forcing them to do so if they don't want to. The question is: What level of per planet tinkering do you think the game should have and why?

Ideal (IMO anyway) is complete freedom. Sure, I might set my empire to 50/50/0 to use all your income by default, but I'd love to set a planet to 100% research production, 100% manufacturing, or 100% wealth without having any sort of drag on the economy from doing so. Each planet might vary between those alternate between those extremes at different times during the game, too. Example:

Settle Caprica II and get a 35% research bonus colonization event. Planet has several research bonus tiles, as well.

Phase 1: 100% manufacturing to build labs, farm, and morale.

Phase 2: 100% research to maximize output on those labs.

=>Alternating phase 1 and phase 2 as research unlocks improvements to the various structures.

Phase 3: Near/at end of tech tree, 100% manufacturing to build economic buildings over labs, then shut off all production (100% wealth).

Of course, Hoth I, which I colonized three turns later, would probably need to follow an entirely different development profile. It may even follow the same path, but hitting each phase at different times. Being able to phase those planets completely independent of each other would be a godsend.

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December 26, 2013 6:19:22 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I am bothered by the idea that seems to be building here that there won't be separate colony queues for building improvements and ship construction. IIRC, didn't GC1 (or was it GC1 for OS2) introduce this as a basic tenant? It is one of the things I really liked about the entire GC string of games.

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December 26, 2013 7:17:58 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

The current plan is that the the production wheel sets the civilization default with the ability of players to override it on a planet by planet basis.

I like the idea of micro managing the planet by planet, however, I would love the ability to expand this, here is my suggestion...

Have an overall race setting where by default all planets will be set to this setting military, research, social ect... then you can go into the planet and adjust it if need be...  Now the interesting thing would be that if you adjust the race settings have it not adjust the custom planets unless you want to by selecting change all planets.

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December 26, 2013 8:18:17 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I want the ability to "Shift-click" multiple planets in sequence and change their focus simultaneously (So I can set my economy worlds, manufacturing etc...) , rather than being forced to do so from their individual planet screens. This one thing in Galactic Civilizations 2 wasted a lot of my time, and it could've been better spent elsewhere.

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December 26, 2013 8:19:10 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Lucky Jack,

I am bothered by the idea that seems to be building here that there won't be separate colony queues for building improvements and ship construction. IIRC, didn't GC1 (or was it GC1 for OS2) introduce this as a basic tenant? It is one of the things I really liked about the entire GC string of games.

There's been screenshots put out that show a single queue per planet for both buildings and ships, yeah.

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December 26, 2013 9:18:44 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Tridus,


Quoting Lucky Jack, reply 5
I am bothered by the idea that seems to be building here that there won't be separate colony queues for building improvements and ship construction. IIRC, didn't GC1 (or was it GC1 for OS2) introduce this as a basic tenant? It is one of the things I really liked about the entire GC string of games.

There's been screenshots put out that show a single queue per planet for both buildings and ships, yeah.

Tridus, My point is that I want confirmation from StarDock that they are dropping what has 'till now been a very major philosophical point, separate build queues for buildings and ships.

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December 26, 2013 9:21:56 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Well yes we want the ability to shift focus on a per planet basis. It's the idea of only 3 sliders that I muse might not be enough. What slider do you slide on your influence planets?

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December 26, 2013 11:50:28 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting parrottmath,

A per planet basis is nice, but there are several planets that function the same way in many aspects.

I have a group of research planets that I want to research all at a higher status than produce things, but then I've got economic hubs where I would prefer to have them at a higher money making aspect.

So, it would be nicer for the player to set up profiles for a planet that sets all these aspects and you can choose that planet to use that profile and then you need only change 4 profiles to edit all your planets in the empire (or a per-planet micro basis).

 

I was thinking along the same lines myself.  Having the ability to create and edit "planet profiles" would make planet-management much smoother, and would open up the possibility of additional profile-based settings, like "favorite improvements" (so you don't have to scroll through the entire building list to make a Research Academy on one of your science worlds), or directed ship production (so you can set all military worlds with a given profile to start producing a specific ship, and rally them to the same hex).

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December 27, 2013 1:12:40 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Wow I agree I want to also be able to build ships and improvements at the same time.

100/100/100 basically would be the same as 34/33/33

One thing I would like to see differently than the previous game is that when you build an improvement instead of deviding points. The right points should be added in the right place. I never liked the loss of points on a fovus anyways.

One thing I didn't like about the colonies is that they did not do enough when they were class 5 or less at least not until years later. 

I really thought that they reakky needed to do more with the governors like specialization. Aspects on what kind of administration.

I definately like the idea of both control of civilization and planet control of production. I would like to see a production que. I would probably create a basic planetary starting package. I also wouldn't mind having other packages for some planets. I would also have an option to set my governors civilization rise. I might change this for certain planets. I would like to mouse over certain planets to change this. I would like to be able to right click on a planet to modify its builds or check things like population, influence, approval, or production. Check whats being built.

Here's what changes to colonies I would like to see. As far as the other things go ahead and make them better.

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December 27, 2013 5:21:37 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

How will the choices impact other productive values? What about population support, etc.?

Having more micro-management will appease and gladden those that love it (I do) and being able to simply use a universal control will allow those that do not (boo, them) to be able to ignore that aspect and continue on with the game. It'll be a win-win.

However, I'd only want the "in-depth" option if it would actually have telling effects.  

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December 27, 2013 2:52:41 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Lucky Jack,

Tridus, My point is that I want confirmation from StarDock that they are dropping what has 'till now been a very major philosophical point, separate build queues for buildings and ships.

The screenshot showing one queue was in the PC Gamer article, and the last time this came up Stardock didn't say anything to refute it. So that seems fairly concrete to me, unless they change their minds.

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December 27, 2013 3:46:48 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Tridus,


Quoting Lucky Jack, reply 9
Tridus, My point is that I want confirmation from StarDock that they are dropping what has 'till now been a very major philosophical point, separate build queues for buildings and ships.

The screenshot showing one queue was in the PC Gamer article, and the last time this came up Stardock didn't say anything to refute it. So that seems fairly concrete to me, unless they change their minds.

Again, this is why I am asking StarDock. I remember way back in the 1990s when Brad was talking about what he didn't like about Civ, about having talked to Sid Meiers, and deciding that two build queues were going to be a very important part of GalCiv. It was as if it would always be that way, which makes what we are seeing a HUGE philosophical change.

So, I guess I should pose the question directly to Brad. What gives? Are you really discarding a philosophy you held so highly when you created GalCiv1 for OS2???????

Personally, I liked having two queues. It was an important difference from other games.

 

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December 27, 2013 3:56:52 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

What about asteroid fields, moons and such? Will asteroid fields give you a production bonus to a planet of your choice or will it just give you credits? One would think its minerals could help boost production on a planet if the "loot" is hauled there. The same with moons. If planets have moons and you set up a base (or colony) its production should help the planet aswell since most ship/starport building should be in orbit and not on the ground. 

 

There could also be multiple types of asteroid belts: Mineralrich, water-rich, fuel-rich, research-rich (if research has an economy to it like GalCiv 2 has). Water rich could for instance help a desert planet grow larger than it could on its own. Im just throwing balls into the air but that would really give players some insentive to micromanage their colonies and give you alot more to do outside of rapig expansion onto planets and fighting.

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December 27, 2013 4:46:44 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Lucky Jack,

Quoting Tridus, reply 14
Personally, I liked having two queues. It was an important difference from other games.

 

 

Yeah that would be bad if they got rid of the two queues.  One of the great things about Galciv2 was having both Military and Social production on the same planet.  When I started playing Fallen Enchantress, with it's one queue, it was like going back in a time machine.  I thought the way Galciv2 did things was a huge improvement over other 4x games like this that I'd played (mainly Civilization 1,2, & 3).  If we're going back to a single queue, I think it will hurt the rain forests and cause cancer for a lot of innocent people.

And while I'm at it, what's with this "production dial" thing anyway?  What was wrong with the sliders?  I think the sliders were much simpler to look at, personally.

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December 27, 2013 4:54:18 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I would tend to say that the player should have as granular of control over each planet as possible, but don't force them to do so. I would say set it up so that the player can choose to have buildings built, and priorities set automatically, based on the player's choice of empire-wide priorities, but give the player the ability to go in and change these things on a planet-to-planet basis. This was my number one issue with the GCII late game, on large maps, it got very tedious to build structures and que ships on each of several hundred planets. 

 

If I am not being clear, here is more or less what I am thinking: 

The player sets their empire-wide priorities, therefore, the AI sets each planet's priorities to that. Then, if the option is enabled, the AI will try to build structures on each planet that give bonuses roughly in proportion with the priorities of that planet... Something along those lines, perhaps what structures are built should be a separate wheel? Or a totally different mechanic? One way or the other, I definitely feel that we need powerful governors to automate the tedious building of structures and ships in large empires. 

 

This segways nicely into a semi-related features request: give me a button that lets me say "put X many of Y ship at this spot", and the best planets for building ships will automatically que ships to be built and sent to that rally point. (if you haven't caught on, I hate micromanaging) 

 

On another semi-related note, check out StarDrive, and the original Supreme Commander. Both are totally different than GalCiv (Well star drive is similar in many aspects, but very different in others), but both, for the most part did economic systems right. 

 

Edit: After reading some of the other posts, I would also like to add that I very much support the idea of different profiles, which can then be applied to each planet, to avoid having to set the same options for many planets at once. Bonus points for the ability to select multiple colonies at once and apply the same profile to all of them. 

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December 27, 2013 6:22:30 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I agree with reply 18. For the most part I agree with how the game does colonies except that the classes of planets that were less than 5 didn't do enough, and that the governors didn't do enough. Also to set my governors I had to do this for every planet. The reason why this was a problem us that I would have opted not to have the auto update option this got in the way. I would also like to que in the small planets with terraforming on while the big planets with terraforming off. This is why I didn't like this on a planet per planet basis. I would like to be able to change this for an empire wide setting. I would like to be able to make a package to setting up a small planet for both building improvements and ship construction. There is no point in micromanaging when you could do this in a repeatable setting for each planet instead of having to check this every time. Otherwise the system I wouldn't care about changing, but things could always be better right. There is no reason why you couldn't have a different  default setting for players than Ai's.

 

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December 28, 2013 7:03:56 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Wetballs,

And while I'm at it, what's with this "production dial" thing anyway?  What was wrong with the sliders?  I think the sliders were much simpler to look at, personally.

Multiple sliders to control something are sucky. If it was a single slider than it'd be fine, but it wasn't. Now it's a single control to do the same thing, and it can tell you how far in the direction of wealth you have to go in order to make money, which is a helpful touch.

This part is an improvement.

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December 30, 2013 1:16:10 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I like the sliders and don't think they need to be fixed because they are not broken.

 

However, the dial thing will do similar, so that works for me.   I like the idea of empire default with city exception.  The governor profile concept could work well for applying certain exceptions/specializations/whatever on planets, especially settings saved from game to game, such as possible build list types and so forth.  Designing governors could be a bit like designing basic ship types.   "Here is how I create a manufacturing giant."  "Here is the basic approach I have to low quality planets." The general philosophy is simplicity at each level, but multiple levels of administration available." 

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December 31, 2013 11:05:12 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

I'm not a big fan of tons of sliders. It's one of things I prefer about the Elemental series to GalCiv.

 

I think planet specialization should be handled by buildings, not sliders.

 

I would allow planets to ratchet down production, which would reduce maintenance costs of buildings.  Maybe even "overheat" production- at risk (buildings breaking/bad events/unrest)

 

I also think the two build queues should be back.  Maybe have the ability to not use one queue to enhance the other.

 

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December 31, 2013 12:46:00 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

GalCiv II sets the overall direction of the economy with the sliders but each planet can specialize (or generalize) at the players option and the focus buttons allow concentration where needed. The sliders can be changed as the game progresses allowing a lot of flexibility. I think it's a good system though it can get a bit cumbersome if you're trying to manage 100 colonies. It would be nice to have a "civil service" to help with the micro management - perhaps scripts or macros to manage most planets with the player controlling a few highly specialized or high value planets manually.

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December 31, 2013 1:20:01 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Lucky Jack,

I am bothered by the idea that seems to be building here that there won't be separate colony queues for building improvements and ship construction. IIRC, didn't GC1 (or was it GC1 for OS2) introduce this as a basic tenant? It is one of the things I really liked about the entire GC string of games.

http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2013/11/Main_Map.jpg

The colonies list on the right shows the production queues of each planet. They appear to be color coded for different types of things. Though I'm not sure why Xeon Lab and Cultural Center appear to be slightly different shades of blue/green. But given this UI, it would appear that construction of units and buildings will come out of a single queue.

 

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December 31, 2013 3:23:06 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting satoru1,
The colonies list on the right shows the production queues of each planet. They appear to be color coded for different types of things. Though I'm not sure why Xeon Lab and Cultural Center appear to be slightly different shades of blue/green. But given this UI, it would appear that construction of units and buildings will come out of a single queue.

As has been discussed before. If you re-read my post, you will see that I am more concerned about the apparent departure from an ideology Brad had expressed strong feelings about (having two build queues, not one) way back when he started Galactic Civilizations.

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