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Frogboy
Kantok
Join Date 10/2007
+67
Reply #101 September 14, 2012 8:19:27 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I don't understand the people who think mods available at release is somehow a bad thing or indicative of a larger problem.

The beauty of mods is that they give the players choice.  Maybe I don't like a particular design feature that the community or the devs love.  Mod it away.  Does that mean the underlying game is weak or poorly done?  No, it just means that my preferred gameplay is different than what the devs have in mind.  

The game that gets released stands on its own or it doesn't.  The existence of mods is irrelevant to that question.

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Frogboy
bbr91
Join Date 05/2010
+3
Reply #102 September 14, 2012 9:29:52 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
reply 101
I never really bothered with modding GalCiv 2, not because the mods were bad, but because it was kinda clunky to install mods.

 

Hopefully this is not the case with FE.

 

Civ 4, folks could have an .exe install mods and click to run mods, never saw that with GC2- I think that did a lot for modding.

In GalCiv you simply have to copy the mod folder to the Mods folder, and then select the mod from within the game. It's pretty straightforward.

 

On another note, I think the game might suffer in reviews because of lack of multiplayer. While I do not mind this at all, and if I remember correctly from the poll, half of us don't mind the lack of multiplayer, the reviewers tend to penalize that. I strongly support the idea of a focus on single player and strong AI, rather than investing in multiplayer. That's what made GalCiv 2 great. But hopefully the reviewers will understand the focus on a great single player experience.

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Frogboy
zhukodim
Join Date 01/2012
0
Reply #103 September 14, 2012 10:00:13 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I play AoW2. The game lives on multiplayer. There are a lot of mods. Each mode is 2.5 people. But a large Number of people play it in multiplayer patch. Where no "pink dragons", etc. Duel, the FFA and the game with the unions , what could be better?

AI will never be good in these games, there will always be exploits and methods easy game against him. 

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Frogboy
Glazunov1
Join Date 08/2010
+26
Reply #104 September 14, 2012 10:41:33 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Alstein,
reply 101
Civ 4, folks could have an .exe install mods and click to run mods, never saw that with GC2- I think that did a lot for modding.

 

I've used CivIV mods extensively, but I've also tested each executable with Kaspersky.  An executable is a very easy and thorough way to conceal viruses.  Much better to simply tell people in which directory to drag and drop a bunch of files: nothing is concealed, all the content can be viewed and even edited by the player.  Look at two of the most active and complex mods out here, now, by Heavenfall and SeanW.  See for yourself just how easy installation without an executable can be.

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Frogboy
TorinReborn
Join Date 10/2010
+5
Reply #105 September 14, 2012 10:42:57 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting bbr91,
reply 100

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 99I wanted to give my voice to the crowd that wants the game to be the best it can be without modding. I see modding as additional content or alternative way to play (like changing all races into LotR races, or removing magic or removing city building). If modding is needed to make the game playable (worse case) or needed to make it better the game itself failed. 

Obviously you know that's not the case with FE, right?

No, I don't know. But some people here think it is OK that the game comes out whatever and they can fix it with mods. I don't want Stardock to read that and feel the same. I had enough of that shit with NWN2 where without 2-3 mods the game was barely playable. Later with all patches done you still needed at least 1 mod.

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Frogboy
Heavenfall
Join Date 07/2008
+441
Reply #106 September 14, 2012 10:58:44 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

What the fuck are you talking about, seriously. Point to one single post that says anything CLOSE to "it is OK that the game comes out whatever and they can fix it with mods".

 

EVERYBODY wants the game to be great without mods. NOBODY wants the devs to make a bad game that is very moddable.

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Frogboy
Alstein
Join Date 07/2004
+55
Reply #107 September 14, 2012 11:02:26 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting zhukodim,
reply 103
I play AoW2. The game lives on multiplayer. There are a lot of mods. Each mode is 2.5 people. But a large Number of people play it in multiplayer patch. Where no "pink dragons", etc. Duel, the FFA and the game with the unions , what could be better?

AI will never be good in these games, there will always be exploits and methods easy game against him. 

 

AoW2 didn't have a singleplayer AI period.

 

 

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Frogboy
Glazunov1
Join Date 08/2010
+26
Reply #108 September 14, 2012 11:11:36 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

There seems to be an expectation on the part of at least one or two people that Stardock is going to pull a Bethsoft, releasing games with the expectation that features users regard as flawed they, the users, will also fix.  I have seen no evidence indicating that this is even remotely close to reality for Stardock.  If I'm wrong about this, show me how, please.

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Frogboy
Glazunov1
Join Date 08/2010
+26
Reply #109 September 14, 2012 11:14:28 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting zhukodim,
reply 103


AI will never be good in these games, there will always be exploits and methods easy game against him.

 

Do you mean TBS games, in general?  Because there are several excellent ones out there with great singleplayer AI.

 

As for exploits: as long as human beings exist, they will always, in all times, in all places, in all civilizations, find ways to game the system.  Doing so in actual modern games is simply an extension of this.  But most players don't care about exploits, and as long as the AI does a very good job and provides a solid challenge, that's the main thing.

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Frogboy
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
+141
Reply #110 September 14, 2012 11:24:35 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

The only reason I am still here is because Brad Wardell is an excellent AI programmer and hires other great AI developers. It might not be equal to a human player, but it will be one of the best AI's in the history of TBS games. Given the complexity the game has, it is already doing very well. In fact, the major problems it has are mostly things that haven't been turned on yet, like strategic offensive spells.

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Frogboy
jshores
Join Date 09/2009
+11
Reply #111 September 14, 2012 11:30:06 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
reply 107
What the fuck are you talking about, seriously. Point to one single post that says anything CLOSE to "it is OK that the game comes out whatever and they can fix it with mods".

 

EVERYBODY wants the game to be great without mods. NOBODY wants the devs to make a bad game that is very moddable.

 

Exactamente.

 

The debate was over whether or not reviewers correlate the number of mods with how bad a game is. 

 

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Frogboy
t1it
Join Date 01/2009
0
Reply #112 September 14, 2012 12:35:00 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting seanw3,
reply 111
The only reason I am still here is because Brad Wardell is an excellent AI programmer and hires other great AI developers. It might not be equal to a human player, but it will be one of the best AI's in the history of TBS games. Given the complexity the game has, it is already doing very well. In fact, the major problems it has are mostly things that haven't been turned on yet, like strategic offensive spells.

Gal Civ 2 AI is still unmatched in the 4x world pretty much. So I have confidence we can get a just as good AI. But I doubt it'll be better than Gal Civ 2, FE is way more complex.

 

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Frogboy
zhukodim
Join Date 01/2012
0
Reply #113 September 14, 2012 3:48:22 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Glazunov1,
reply 110

Quoting zhukodim, reply 103

AI will never be good in these games, there will always be exploits and methods easy game against him.

 

Do you mean TBS games, in general?  Because there are several excellent ones out there with great singleplayer AI.

 

As for exploits: as long as human beings exist, they will always, in all times, in all places, in all civilizations, find ways to game the system.  Doing so in actual modern games is simply an extension of this.  But most players don't care about exploits, and as long as the AI does a very good job and provides a solid challenge, that's the main thing.

 

I find it difficult in English. But any good turn-based strategy has a lot of different game strategies, maneuvers and tricks. AI does not know how to do something unpredictable. In  game with ai you do not need a lot of scouts. No need to use half( i think much more but ok) of the game features. And the pleasure of victory... I do not get it in  game against  AI.

Русская версия ( более широкая )

 В любой хорошей пошаговой стратегии есть огромное количество возможностей, рычажков для достижения целей. ИИ никогда не научить действовать нелогично, рисковано. Очень важный аспект каждой тбс - разведка. С ии она не нужна, а это, на мой взгляд, очень важный и интересный элемент игры.  Играя против ИИ нет надобности использовать и половину возможностей игры, на самом деле даже больше. Что касается примеров хорошего ИИ - скорее всего это варгеймы, но и там не идеален, если углубляться в механику игру. Галактичискую цивилизацию как пример вообще не рассматриваю. Там все строится на бонусах для аи на сложных уровнях. А в остальном он также предсказуем.  У игры хороший потенциал. Но я жду мультиплеера. На моды для мультиплеера я не расчитываю. Основываюсь на собственном опыте - подавляющее большинство мододелов сами не являются хорошими игроками, некоторые даже плохо понимают формулы , особенно начинающие ребятки. Более того они сами не играют в свои моды, лишь тестят новые свои надбавки. Как-то так.

 

 

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