Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

Expeariance points per kill.

very different between the races.

So... i was messing around... and i noticed... that when you kill an assailant... 6 fleet supply, you get 20 exp.

when you kill a tec LRM, you get 30 exp. 4 fleet supply.

when you kill a advent illum, you get 45 exp.

I am quite confuzzilled.

in, say, a firefight... the vasari player, say, he loses 60 fleet supply of assailants, and his opponent capital ship gains 200 exp... and say, that vasari manages to kill 60 fleet supply of LRMS, and HIS cap ship gains 450 exp.

this, of course made me want to look at the other ships.... and i quickly made this table.

Ship Class	Faction	Name
Scout	Advent	Seeker Vessel	15
Scout	TEC	Arcova Scout Frigate	20
Scout	Vasari	Jikara Navigator	20
Light	Advent	Disciple Vessel	30
Light	TEC	Cobalt Light Frigate	30
Light	Vasari	Ravastra Skirmisher	30
Long	Advent	Illuminator Vessel	45
Long	TEC	Javelis LRM Frigate	30
Long	Vasari	Kanrak Assailant	20
Antifighter	Advent	Defense Vessel	60
Antifighter	TEC	Garda Flak Frigate	50
Antifighter	Vasari	Junsurak Sentinel	60
Carrier	Advent	Aeria Drone Host	100
Carrier	TEC	Percheron Light Carrier	80
Carrier	Vasari	Lasurak Transporter	80
Utility0	Advent	Domina Subjugator	20
Utility0	TEC	Cielo Command Cruiser	50
Utility0	Vasari	Stilakus Subverter	20
Utility1	Advent	Iconus Guardian	20
Utility1	TEC	Hoshiko Robotics Cruiser	30
Utility1	Vasari	Serevun Overseer	20
Heavy	Advent	Destra Crusader	100
Heavy	TEC	Kodiak Heavy Cruiser	100
Heavy	Vasari	Skarovas Enforcer	100
Fighter	Advent	Fighter	2.5	22.5
Fighter	TEC	Fighter	3.5	21
Fighter	Vasari	Fighter	5	20
Bomber	Advent	Bomber	6.5	45.5
Bomber	TEC	Bomber	6.5	32.5
Bomber	Vasari	Bomber	11	33
Colony	Advent	Missionary Vessel	20
Colony	TEC	Protev Colony Frigate	20
Colony	Vasari	Jarun Migrator	20

perhaps one of the reasons why vasari are so loved right now... is, not only do assailants when maxed out, do devilish dps thanks to phase missles, is that, in a battle of attrition of LRMS, the vasari player will level up over twice as fast. The vasari player also has the advantage in utility cruisers, flack, and light frigs by a noticeable ammount.

perhaps another reason why advent scout spam used to be so amazing before the nerf, is that a scout kill is only 15 exp, vs 20 for the other factions... and advent scouts at that time had more DPS and more HP than the other factions scouts.

so, any thoughts on this? I know people dont really base thier stratigies on what gives and what doesnt give the most exp for thier capital ships and thier enemy capital ships... but suddenly, when ima playing tec vs vasari, i now understand why I have 1 lv 5 capital ship, and they have 3 lv5-6 skirantras.

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SageWon

Well, two possibilities...

1. Someone made a mistake

2. These values are handicaps for one race vs another race.

There was already one xp revision several patches ago, though I can't remember what changed -- some values could have reasons behind them. The xp for Seekers might be lower because these ships can be kamikazes. Hoshikos might be higher because the little bastards are hard to kill when travelling in packs, though certainly the Iconus seems kind of low at 20 for a ship that can take a serious beating. Skirmisher should probably be higher compared to its equivalents, but when I last played I didn't see many people making basic assault frigs anyhow.

Nitpicking aside, I think it is pretty safe to say LRF is the only ship class where xp values are currently having a serious impact because they are the foundation of early game fleets. Both LRM & Illuminator give 90 xp per 12 capacity. Assailant is the odd guy out with 40xp per 12 capacity. While baseline Assailants are really not that great for their cap cost, 20 xp is kind of low, especially considering that Carrier Caps are now stand-alone war machines whose only early game counter is LRF or other Carrier Caps.

As it stands, the Skirantra and other Vasari/Advent caps certainly are huge winners in the xp disparity. Mind you, previous to this patch with the big Skirantra buff, I found it very hard to make headway with Vasari without relying on Starbases unless I lucked out with lots of neutrals. I haven't played in a while, but it seems like Vasari is too tough now, and so issues like xp imbalance come to the surface where they didn't seem to make a big difference over the last couple patches. Who knows what the next patch will bring?

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This issue has been discussed before. I've known about it for over a year now, and I've never been able to come up with a good explanation as to why the assailant kicks out so little XP and the LRM kicks out so much. Anyways, I extended your table to account for XP/command, so we can compare different unit types:

Ship Class	Faction	Name	XP	Command	XP / Command
Scout	Advent	Seeker Vessel	15	2	7.5
Scout	TEC	Arcova Scout Frigate	20	2	10
Scout	Vasari	Jikara Navigator	20	3	6.67
Light	Advent	Disciple Vessel	30	4	7.5
Light	TEC	Cobalt Light Frigate	30	5	6
Light	Vasari	Ravastra Skirmisher	30	7	4.29
Long	Advent	Illuminator Vessel	45	6	7.5
Long	TEC	Javelis LRM Frigate	30	4	7.5
Long	Vasari	Kanrak Assailant	20	6	3.33
Siege	Advent	Purge Vessel	65	12	5.42
Siege	TEC	Krosov Siege Frigate	65	12	5.42
Siege	Vasari	Karrastra Destructor	65	12	5.42
Antifighter	Advent	Defense Vessel	60	4	15
Antifighter	TEC	Garda Flak Frigate	50	4	12.5
Antifighter	Vasari	Junsurak Sentinel	60	5	12
Carrier	Advent	Aeria Drone Host	100	20	5
Carrier	TEC	Percheron Light Carrier	80	14	5.71
Carrier	Vasari	Lasurak Transporter	80	14	5.71
Utility0	Advent	Domina Subjugator	20	4	5
Utility0	TEC	Cielo Command Cruiser	50	6	8.33
Utility0	Vasari	Stilakus Subverter	20	5	4
Utility1	Advent	Iconus Guardian	20	7	2.86
Utility1	TEC	Hoshiko Robotics Cruiser	30	4	7.5
Utility1	Vasari	Serevun Overseer	20	7	2.86
Heavy	Advent	Destra Crusader	100	10	10
Heavy	TEC	Kodiak Heavy Cruiser	100	10	10
Heavy	Vasari	Skarovas Enforcer	100	12	8.33
Colony	Advent	Missionary Vessel	20	7	2.86
Colony	TEC	Protev Colony Frigate	20	6	3.33
Colony	Vasari	Jarun Migrator	20	6	3.33

There are a few other peculiarities. The Advent scout for some reason gives less XP than its brethren, despite being the toughest to kill. All the light frigates kick out the same XP despite having vastly varying costs. The Disciple and Cobalt are within reason, but the Skirmisher kicks out nearly nothing for its size. Of course, the Skirmisher has nothing on the assailant. It seems the Assailant, by far, gives the least experience per command of any combat unit in the game. In fact, it's giving about the same XP as a scout.

This is a pretty major issue; that unit should be giving out at least 30 XP, if not 40 or 45. I don't know why it's still at 20, this issue has been brought up before, and I would like to see it corrected.

The flaks seem mostly balanced against each other, but they kick out massive amounts of XP on death relative to their size as a unit. This is probably to do with their toughness (since they're hard to kill) but it is a little odd.

The Cielo seems to stick out like a sore thumb for support cruisers, granting 50 xp where other support cruisers are giving only 20. I don't think this is so much a problem with the Cielo (50 XP isn't crazy high, especially for a unit you won't have many of to begin with) but rather than the other support cruisers give out next to nothing. Maybe they should all move to 30.

Ship Class	Faction	Name	XP	Command	XP / Command
Scout	Advent	Seeker Vessel	15	2	7.5
Scout	TEC	Arcova Scout Frigate	20	2	10
Scout	Vasari	Jikara Navigator	20	2	10
Light	Advent	Disciple Vessel	30	4	7.5
Light	TEC	Cobalt Light Frigate	30	5	6
Light	Vasari	Ravastra Skirmisher	30	7	4.29
Long	Advent	Illuminator Vessel	45	6	7.5
Long	TEC	Javelis LRM Frigate	30	4	7.5
Long	Vasari	Kanrak Assailant	20	6	3.33
Siege	Advent	Purge Vessel	65	12	5.42
Siege	TEC	Krosov Siege Frigate	65	12	5.42
Siege	Vasari	Karrastra Destructor	65	12	5.42
Antifighter	Advent	Defense Vessel	60	4	15
Antifighter	TEC	Garda Flak Frigate	50	4	12.5
Antifighter	Vasari	Junsurak Sentinel	60	5	12
Carrier	Advent	Aeria Drone Host	100	20	5
Carrier	TEC	Percheron Light Carrier	80	14	5.71
Carrier	Vasari	Lasurak Transporter	80	14	5.71
Utility0	Advent	Domina Subjugator	20	4	5
Utility0	TEC	Cielo Command Cruiser	50	6	8.33
Utility0	Vasari	Stilakus Subverter	20	5	4
Utility1	Advent	Iconus Guardian	20	7	2.86
Utility1	TEC	Hoshiko Robotics Cruiser	30	4	7.5
Utility1	Vasari	Serevun Overseer	20	7	2.86
Heavy	Advent	Destra Crusader	100	10	10
Heavy	TEC	Kodiak Heavy Cruiser	100	10	10
Heavy	Vasari	Skarovas Enforcer	100	12	8.33
Colony	Advent	Missionary Vessel	20	7	2.86
Colony	TEC	Protev Colony Frigate	20	6	3.33
Colony	Vasari	Jarun Migrator	20	6	3.33

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the illium may have been given more XP value to help counter spamming at one point. if you were to counter illiums with cap ships then they would level up faster and give a significant advantage to the caps.

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

caps, of all things dont counter illums. light armor is the only thing capital ships dont get a 100% modifyer agaisnt, and illums have 75% modifier vs cap ships... which is the same modifier bombers and HCs have.

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Nice chart....did the Jikara Navigator have its command point reduced to 2? I haven't played in a while and don't have Sins installed to check....

Anyhow, I don't think most of the imbalances are going to cause much effect except for the one on LRF. Even if Cielo's to Guardians are really imbalanced, by the stage of game you are seeing them (if you even see them) they aren't going to have a big impact. Still, it would be good to see it all make sense.

LRF on the other hand has a large impact, so large that I wondered if it wasn't intentional.... but with the current state of the Skirantra, Advent and Vasari hardly need to be fed xp.

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did the Jikara Navigator have its command point reduced to 2?

Typo in my spreadsheet. So yeah, the Jikara gives the least XP among scouts, though it's not 50% stronger than the other scouts to begin with, so that's still within reason.

LRF on the other hand has a large impact, so large that I wondered if it wasn't intentional.... but with the current state of the Skirantra, Advent and Vasari hardly need to be fed xp.

I don't think that the LRM is too high, the problem is that the assailant is too low! If you compare against heavies or light frigates, the illuminator and LRM are on par. It's the assailant (and to a lesser extent, the skirmisher, though that unit still kinda sucks) that sticks out like a sore thumb. An range would be 30-45 XP.

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I was fixating LRM a bit because they usually die in disproportionate numbers to the other LRF in practical gameplay, but I agree with you so much that I will just quote where I already said as much....

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