Scratch Civ V off my buy list. » Forum Post by Alstein

Quoting ,

Actually, copyright holders do have control over individual copies by law. This is the full purpose of Copyright Laws. If you carefully read the EULA of software, you will also notice that you are only granted a license to use the software, that it is in fact not regarded as a "copy" of the copyrighted material (since mastering produces "originals" not "copies"). You don't actually own the software, just the right to use it. Thus, you do not have the right to transfer that ownership of the license (or First Sale Doctrine under US law).

Hello Dale_,

Please explain what you mean by this statement. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to resell my copy of (for example) Halo 2 to someone?

If you are, then you are not correct. That is all I'm saying.

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Quoting bonscott,

reply 283

EXACTLY!

Like the Civ Fanatics HOF mod. After a patch it's usually 2-4 weeks at least before the HOF mod is updated for the new patch as they test thing to either work with new features of the patch and to make sure things aren't broken.

I really don't get the mod argument. What are the two most modded games in history? Half-Life 1 and Half-Life 2, both use Steam. But now all of a sudden Steam would cripple modding in Civ5?

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What are the two most modded games in history? Half-Life 1 and Half-Life 2, both use Steam.

Respectfully disagree with that assertion.

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But now all of a sudden Steam would cripple modding in Civ5?

It wouldn't be much of an issue for Civ5, not because having a constantly changing version makes modding harder (it does) but because 2K doesn't patch games often.

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Quoting TCores,

reply 301

quoting postActually, copyright holders do have control over individual copies by law. This is the full purpose of Copyright Laws. If you carefully read the EULA of software, you will also notice that you are only granted a license to use the software, that it is in fact not regarded as a "copy" of the copyrighted material (since mastering produces "originals" not "copies"). You don't actually own the software, just the right to use it. Thus, you do not have the right to transfer that ownership of the license (or First Sale Doctrine under US law).

Hello Dale_,

Please explain what you mean by this statement. Are you saying that I'm not allowed to resell my copy of (for example) Halo 2 to someone?

If you are, then you are not correct. That is all I'm saying.

As I've explained, due to the Berne Treaty copyright law is applied in country of use, not country of creation (unless both are in the same country).

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Quoting Nesrie,

reply 300

Quoting Dale_, reply 298

I was pointing out that the US case law you used to justify your position is not relevant in Australia, and actually is different to how it would've ended up in Australia. I would advise reading up on the Berne Convention, WIPO, how both treaties were implemented in the US and how it differs to most countries who signed those treaties (and why it's different).

I didn't point to a specific case law, that was someone else. I support taking the approach which is not the same thing. I am familiar with Autocad, but again, i didnt bring it up.

I apologise as I thought it was you.

Maybe you should read the thread a little better to understand how copyright law is handled in the USA since we are talking about US companies in this thread. You still can't even acknowledge the difference between what you claim to be saying, and what you are actually saying.

What is this "difference" that you are talking about? Usually when someone claims something, they say it.

Anyways, as I said in my last post above, due to the Berne treaty copyright law is applied at country of use, not country of creation (unless both coincide). And since I am in Australia, Australian copyright law is what I'm using for the basis of my comments, not US copyright law (which wouldn't apply in my case since copyright law is applied at country of use, which in MY case is Australia).

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I think we maybe have had enough of the your law my law jumbo in here please Could we see if we can stray back to the more narrow path that is the topic?

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

Valve is a US company- US law would apply.

One thing I'd be interested in is whether Valve did anything in violation of the Sherman Act.

I strongly suspect 2K got some monetary gift from this.

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Quoting Wintersong,

reply 18

Quoting Adante,
reply 10
Wait what is the problem with this?
Forced to be online no matter what to play in single player. And the excuse of "But you have internet all the time." is pure BS, so don't bother with it. In any case, I don't have anything against Steam... except Steamworks.

Still waiting for companies to force me to give blood samples each time I launch a game (while being online) to check for my identity as the true owner of a license for their game (that is nothing but a client as the game is actually in their servers, for which a pay a monthly fee to be able to enjoy my single player experience). All that while a security man from their company watches me frommy own room to make sure that I use a legitimate copy of the client (in addition to online checks), that no one else plays with my license (in addition to be forced to play with the webcam on so they can watch me)... e t c

You have to be online in order to activate the game. After that you need not be online to play, as steam can run in offline mode. You need to run steam and civ5, but steam needs no connection save for multiplayer of course.

I do not see the problem with steam, although I can see why this would be a blow for SD and impulse - just like it is a blow for every digital cliënt that sells software other than steam. This will not stop me from buying civ v as I have little doubt that it will blow most strategy games out of the water - maybe even including EWoM. That however will not stop me from playing Elemental at all, as elemental will still be awesome, no matter what the competition does.

Woohoo two great games coming this fall!

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Quoting XeronX,

reply 295

Quoting DeCypher00, reply 124I find all this fear of Steam becoming a big evil empire kind of funny.

It's already a big empire. Impulse is the Linux to Steam's Windows.

Being afraid that Valve will control all publishing is silly. You know what happens when they overstep boundaries? Consumers and developers can easily move to consoles. It's already happening for the most part. Valve is not stupid enough to destroy the PC gaming industry. Please give them some credit.

I feel like I'm in a Linux forum on a thread bashing Windows. There are plenty of valid points, but they are all ultimately meaningless. Steam, like Windows, doesn't play fair. They bundle their store with everything, and throw irresistible deals in your face every time you close a game or use their community features. That's just smart business. It's fine and dandy to take the high and mighty road like Linux does, but as a consumer, the bottom line is this: if it works, I'll keep using it. And that's where Steam is.
Okay I keep trying to read the entire thread before I post but this one post made me take real exception.

Windows vrs Linux.

I have 3 PC's in my home. One for myself, one for my wife, and unfortunately one for my son and schoolwork because I won't let him touch mine.

All three machines are built by me. I ordered all the parts seperately and built the systems to the specs I wanted in my gaming platform. Of course after I had them built I needed an OS. So of course for what I use my computer for I choose window and the current version was Vista.

I went out and spent 200 dollars on the OS which the cost alone almost made me consider a different OS. But I bit the bullet and came home and installed Vista on my machine and my wives. But because of the damn interwebz and having to register on it. I could not use my copy on both my machines. Nevermind I spent 200 F*ing dollars on an overpriced operating system. Nevermind that as far as I am concerned this is my property now. I had to buy a second copy.

This made me decide I had finally had enough of Microsoft's Bullshit. So I looked into what it would take to go either Mac or Linux. after some time consuming research I figured out due to what i use my machine for. While the other two were options. they were not really acceptable options. Too be able to run the selection of items I demanded with the simplicity I demanded. It was either windows or nothing. So I was left with a very unpalatable choice, though it was really a dictate dressed up in a choice.

So yes while it is nice in theory that the market will correct itself, The fact of the matter is while the free market may be the best option out there, It is by no means a reliable option. With enough market share you can effectifely neutrilize a free markets ability to correct itself. You can conquer the market without ever truely consolidating a monopoly.

Yes I thouroghly Dislike the fact that due to the number of games I own Hard copies of. I have Steam, Impulse, Windows Live, and god knows whatever 3rd party crap I shouldn't be forced to have but am. But if i want to play anything at all I am forced to choose all or nothing.

And when the choices are all or nothing....

You really don't have a choice at all.

Cough should of got the OEM version for significantly less cough (or shopped around). COUGH!

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Valve is a US company- US law would apply

No, because Valve sells its products around the world. If Valve was a US company, with it's servers in the US, selling products only to people in the US, then US law would apply. As it is though, other countries laws apply as well as the US's.

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Exactly. Valve is an international company. Its only based in the US (headquarters).

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Quoting Tasunke,

reply 312

Exactly. Valve is an international company. Its only based in the US (headquarters).

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that they, Valve and 2K sell more legal copies of their games in the US than any other country, and probably some countries combined.

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For now ...

Although you have to admit that between the vast majority of Video Game market share lies within the United States and Japan. Therefore, saying that an International (Video Game based) Company should not be considered International because the majority of transactions are in either United States, Japan, or both would be an unfair statement.

That would be like saying that World War I and II are not world wars because the "majority" of the fighting took place in Europe. Or, equally, it would be like saying the only participants in World War II were United States, Britain, Germany, Russia, and Japan. As opposed to the many, many nations that actually participated.

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If it's true as I read here that only 20% of customers download games while the rest still buy the disk, that means only a small fraction of t2/firaxis customers will be downloading civ5 in the first place. Giving steam a monopoly, if that is in fact what is going to happen by default because of steam's business practices, means the civ people will even be missing out on some of those download sales because of customers preferring other download services or not liking steam. If steam has 70% of the download market, as I read here, then that will be 30% that may not buy civ5 because of the steam decision. So of the total market, mathematically that works out to 30% of the 20% which download games and around 6% of the total market that may not buy civ5 because of the steam decision. 6% may not seem like a lot, but for every potential 1 million sales, that's 60k of lost sales. At $60 a shot, that's a loss of $3,600,000.00. for setting up their download sales exclusively with steam. I wouldn't exactly call that chump change.

Another thing is that downloading games and using services like steam is still relatively new. Many people have little or no idea how these things work yet. The majority of those people who buy the disk and then go to sign up and use steam are going to be in for quite an education experience. Signing up appears easy enough, but there is a lot of things you need to know and learn if you are someone new to this sort of thing. And I would guess that a fair proportion of people will run into difficulties. From the civfanatics forum, here are a couple of links to posts describing problems people had using steam:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9180669&postcount=31

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9177450&postcount=29

Now these people were probably more experienced using things like steam than the average person buying a disk at a store. Since one has to install steam and run it at least periodically, everyone buying the game will have to learn how to use the service. Someone brand new to this gaming concept, like quite a few will be, are going to have real headaches when these kinds of problems manifest themselves. They wont know what to do, and since they wouldn't be expecting such complications, they are going to be pissed off big time.

Back when civ4 came out, there were all sorts of compatibility problems and some programming bugs. It took them a while to fix that mess. Integrating a 3rd party's software into the civ5 programming will likely increase these usual new release compatibility/bug problems even more. This is much more complicated than just putting the game on steam to sell it like they did with civ4, it's mixing steam and firaxis programming together in the same product. That alone should make for some interesting problems down the line. I see a major train wreak approaching for t2/firaxis with civ5.

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MarvinKosh

Join Date 08/2005

+87

Well I'm not buying Civ V if it means I have to add another digital distribution program to my PC. I can only just about tolerate Impulse and its refusal to play ball with a limited user account (Windows XP). I keep it around so that if something goes wrong with my Stardock software, I can re-download and re-install it without any hassle.

I do not want three different programs for updating and downloading different games and if that means I have to go to retail and pick up a boxed game because it isn't available to download on my preferred (read: tolerated) client, that's what I'm going to do.

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Quoting scratchthepitch,

reply 315

If it's true as I read here that only 20% of customers download games while the rest still buy the disk, that means only a small fraction of t2/firaxis customers will be downloading civ5 in the first place. Giving steam a monopoly, if that is in fact what is going to happen by default because of steam's business practices, means the civ people will even be missing out on some of those download sales because of customers preferring other download services or not liking steam. If steam has 70% of the download market, as I read here, then that will be 30% that may not buy civ5 because of the steam decision. So of the total market, mathematically that works out to 30% of the 20% which download games and around 6% of the total market that may not buy civ5 because of the steam decision. 6% may not seem like a lot, but for every potential 1 million sales, that's 60k of lost sales. At $60 a shot, that's a loss of $3,600,000.00. for setting up their download sales exclusively with steam. I wouldn't exactly call that chump change.

Another thing is that downloading games and using services like steam is still relatively new. Many people have little or no idea how these things work yet. The majority of those people who buy the disk and then go to sign up and use steam are going to be in for quite an education experience. Signing up appears easy enough, but there is a lot of things you need to know and learn if you are someone new to this sort of thing. And I would guess that a fair proportion of people will run into difficulties. From the civfanatics forum, here are a couple of links to posts describing problems people had using steam:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9180669&postcount=31

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9177450&postcount=29

Now these people were probably more experienced using things like steam than the average person buying a disk at a store. Since one has to install steam and run it at least periodically, everyone buying the game will have to learn how to use the service. Someone brand new to this gaming concept, like quite a few will be, are going to have real headaches when these kinds of problems manifest themselves. They wont know what to do, and since they wouldn't be expecting such complications, they are going to be pissed off big time.

Back when civ4 came out, there were all sorts of compatibility problems and some programming bugs. It took them a while to fix that mess. Integrating a 3rd party's software into the civ5 programming will likely increase these usual new release compatibility/bug problems even more. This is much more complicated than just putting the game on steam to sell it like they did with civ4, it's mixing steam and firaxis programming together in the same product. That alone should make for some interesting problems down the line. I see a major train wreak approaching for t2/firaxis with civ5.

well said

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Are people here really that ignorant about Steam. You can just go into your game folder and launch it via the startup .exe and never have to even start Steam. this is one-time only internet activation for DRM. Ubisoft is the one producing games you have to be online all the time to play, settlers 7, Silent hunter 5, and all other current and future Ubisoft titles you have to be online all the time to play. I have officially boycitted all ubisoft games.

Steam gives you

no need for cd key

install when you like without disks

run when you like without disks

crazy sales events where I can buy game for a fraction of their cost

an truly green option for buying games as well as saving me the headache and gas money of driving to a store.

I also have quite a few games on Impulse. Competition is always a good thing and I dont mind running two clients. Honestly the friends list should be an open standard so you can transfer it around between providers but aside from that I don't have ny problems with multiple game download services. All the Steam hate just doesn't make any sense and the majority of times I see it it comes from a place of ignorance.

FYI with the new client look in the upper right of your game library and you'll see "view" and some icons allows you to change your games display views to list or grid along with a size enhancer.

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"Are people here really that ignorant about Steam. You can just go into your game folder and launch it via the startup .exe and never have to even start Steam. this is one-time only internet activation for DRM."

How many games on steam can you do that with? X-Com: UFO - Enemy Unkown (my name) does but anything from THIS decade? lol

Anyway you missed ALL of the points about the argument, that seems to be a common pattern in this thread.

Yes steam is goodzors!! That is not in question.

Quoting Chibiabos,

reply 297

loose != lose

no, your wrong, I like it tight.

(make a silly correction, get a silly reply)

Anyway, I agree with Nick.

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your = something that belongs to you. Your house, your statement, your car.

you're = you are

your wrong = the wrong which you have committed.

you're wrong = you are wrong (which is what you should have said)

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Quoting taltamir,

reply 320

your = something that belongs to you. Your house, your statement, your car.

you're = you are

your wrong = the wrong which you have committed.

you're wrong = you are wrong (which is what you should have said)

Aye. A knae hae to spell, noo gat ta fook oot mate!

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Are people here really that ignorant about Steam. You can just go into your game folder and launch it via the startup .exe and never have to even start Steam.

Does this work like that for games that are using STEAMWORKS? Can STEAMWORKS work without any STEAM client launched by any means (even by a startup.exe)?

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Quoting Jam3,

reply 318

Are people here really that ignorant about Steam. You can just go into your game folder and launch it via the startup .exe and never have to even start Steam. this is one-time only internet activation for DRM. Ubisoft is the one producing games you have to be online all the time to play, settlers 7, Silent hunter 5, and all other current and future Ubisoft titles you have to be online all the time to play. I have officially boycitted all ubisoft games.

.

List of games that you have tried personally that it's worked with.

I haven't found a single one. Of currently installed, Just Cause 2, Operation Flashpoint 2, and X3 Terran Conflict do not support this.

If what you say is true, it is the exception- not the rule.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

Quoting Peace Phoenix,

reply 322

Are people here really that ignorant about Steam. You can just go into your game folder and launch it via the startup .exe and never have to even start Steam.

Does this work like that for games that are using STEAMWORKS? Can STEAMWORKS work without any STEAM client launched by any means (even by a startup.exe)?

No. Games that use Steamworks require the Steam store/DRM client to be running. This is why some people object to it.

If EA or UbiSoft or Microsft did the same thing, there'd be riots (and have been in similar scenarios). If in order to run say Fallout 3, you had to first load up a program called say AntiPiracy Checker which included a store and that you had to create a store account in order to play I think it's safe to say that a lot of people would be very upset.

The only thing really softens it is that there are so many fans of Steam.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

The only Steam game I know that does support this is Mount and Blade series, and that's only if you download the game directly from them, and use your CD key. Hence, the only non-Valve game I bought from Steam.

Paradox games have had a number of problems with Steam also. Impulse seems to work fine with Paradox games.

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