Thoughts/hopes for new ship types? » Forum Post by 52500

I like the artillery cruisers but I was thinking more like sniper cruisers. Theyd sit out far from the actual turmoil and fire mini novalith cannon shots that would deplete antimatter causing all abilities onboard a ship to go through the cooldown process. I have to say though all three factions should get this ship, be a bit unfair for only the Vasari considering their SB is the only one that can transverse the entire Gravity well and actually intercept AntiStructure Cruisers. Thes sniper cruisers would be easy prey for bombers though and would need to be escorted by flak and healing cruisers.

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There's not many ships that can be added since nearly everything is covered. Weapons that do constant damage, weapons that do contagious damage(or bounce from ship to ship), ships with multiple types of weapons, a lot of things like that wouldn't work out well either. There's not really much that can be done since this game is based more on counters than on effects of weapons, so you can't just have a bunch of ships that all do the same thing like in, say, Total Annihilation, while looking cool in their own way. Ships would really only be good when they form their own triangle or support other ships.

A stalling ship might be interesting. Tractor beam for Advent, Gravity Net for Vasari, Some engine intereference for Tec. But there are already abilities that slow down ships.

It would be nice to have a ship dedicated to hunting trade and refinery ships, but too weak to hurt anything else.

An artillery ship is a good idea, though I think siege frigates should have that role. From that, a tank type that would be more like that sniper ship mentioned would be cool except it would just be able to shoot from really far away. Slow and heavily armored, but could peck from across grav well and escape.

Attachment ships could be an interesting thing, like a 1 fleet supply ship that is just a pair of fighter sized lasers that could be attached to a frigate or cruiser. It'd be treated like a squad assigned to the ship, but it wouldn't move away from the ship. There could be attack types, defense types(shield), or repair aiding types. Or whatever sort of effect could be added.

I would really like to see a ship that INTENTIONALLY would go above or below the normal plane to attack ships from its top or belly. It would cause players to react when something starts shooing them from way above, and make battles more dynamic as the computer went to chase them.

But yes, ships should really be thought of in terms of triangles, or at least counters, else they would disrupt/replace what we already have. Unless you think outside the box and have a ship that could become a mini factory that produced cheap(ly made) remote controlled/robotic ships to replace fallen ships in a battle (that also took fleet supply but were weaker/frailer than normal ships.) or something.

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I like the idea of the add on ships.

I think that saying that all ship types are covered is an exaggeration.

-I think there is a possibility of a gravity well limitited frigate. another addon in the tac net. sort of low armor, high dps light attack vessel. essentially tac is limited to fighters (mobile, and killable with flak) turrets (immobile and limited range) repair (large range but ultimately passive) starbasses (which dont count as tac but are defense regardless but immobile even the orky is super speed limited). I suggest a frigate that allows for mobility and at least a level of survivability. it also adds a part of a counter to a large fleet that none of the other defenses allow for.

-for the artillery ships arent quite the same thing as the seige. and personally the lrfs are already "snipers." they would mean that a tight cluster of anything would be risking being severly damaged. that means groups of transports sitting on the edge of the well would be able to be targeted. I do think though that if they are firing into a battle there should be a veeeeery small friendly fire damage. otherwise these things would dominate by the time anything else got into range.

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I think that artillery cruisers would be a terrible addition to the game. Having a ship that can be produced en masse and do AOE attacks would just be too powerful. It'd just be too strong. I especially worry about the idea of artillery cruisers because of they could easily become the catapault of Age of Empires. Back then, they had enormous range and just two could devastate entire armies. And Hittite siege engines got an HP boost, making them effectively immortal... and causing a traumatised nine-year-old.

Besides, I think SOASE has enough frigates and cruisers. Everything got it's general role covered. Though it would be nice to get maybe another Strikecraft or two.

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i like the idea of artillery cruisers, though i like psychoseraph's idea of making it the siege frigate. give them more health/shields, and perhaps create a special armor type that bombers do 125% damage to? might work. it would certainly make siege frigates useful again as more than a tiny distraction

i also like the tactical frigate idea. it shouldnt take up fleet supply, but instead it could take up 7 tactical spots. that would give you an upper limit of 5 per gravwell (6 if you do the research for advent). they could be like mini-battlecruisers: high dps but low hp/shields/armor

you could also add interceptors, an anti-fighter sc. perhaps we will see some of these in a potential sequel?

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I fully admit to being influenced by a couple of other sources -

How about these for new strke craft?:

Advent - blobs of psychic energy that would slam into opponents, bypassing shields and doing significant damage to enemy hulls. Drawbacks: one-shot items with longer rebuild times.

TEC - boarding vessels that would be able to latch onto an enemy ship, and once there board and do significant damage over time. When the time is up, they could detach and fly away. Drawbacks: they're slow and therefore easily countered by enemy strikecraft.

Vasari - saboteur strike craft with special beam weapons that could do minor overall damage but would be able to reduce speed, weapon cooldowns, and special ability cooldowns by 20%. Drawbacks: very little damage compared to other strikecraft, these are just for support.

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Personally, I'd take the existing ships and rework them so they aren't all single-role units.

Other than that, I'd say add the Interceptors, Light Bombers, and Heavy Bombers of the Mad Scientist Mod and the EWS Squads from Distant Stars.

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I think that all roles are covered. This is nothing more to add. Except maybe a flak cruiser.

Personally, I'd take the existing ships and rework them so they aren't all single-role units.

Agreed. I think that combining assualt cruisers and siege frigates into one unit would be good. As for extra SC, I think that fighter-bombers might work which are less effective then specialist SC, but are more flexible.

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I get where you are coming from. Here's another take on new ships/rework. Existing vavies have extremely specialized ships, but they also have different sizes for some of the roles. Carrier v super carrier v escort carrier v anti sub carrier, v commando carrier etc., tanker v super tanker. And they aslo make tradeoff sof r roles around the same size, battle ships v battle cruisers.

I may be saying this poorly, but what if we also extended the ... sizes of ships. Have an assailant cruiser perhaps. I could go with seeing more ship sizes too. of course thats ridiculous.

but a different size of an existing shiptype could allow you to integrate another ability from a different ship or something, letting you have one ship that fills two roles for some combination of fleet supply.

just a thought.

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I always thought putting variety into the ships themselves would create different fleet makeups. Like going heavy on weapons apposed to heavy on shields, or even balanced.

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right. you could end up with a fleet of a heavy armor assailants, or a light carrier with flak? man, think of the customization, think of the headaches. I would say that you would only get so many kinds of custom ships, make them reseachable (if making a new type) just like all the other ships. Or else you just have a billion funny little guys.

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

Well, haven't read the above posts, but I'm just going to yank some ideas out of my mod... I will display technical data from the forums I have posted for my mod...

---------------------Frigates---------------------

Minesweepers: Detect and destroy mines.

Neodyn Detonator [TEC]
Hull: 700
Armor: 3
Armor Type: Light
Shields: 350
Weapons:

Fore: One VH Autocannon 18 DPS
Abilities:

Minesweeper: Detects all mines within a radius of 2500 [Passive]

Neodine Bomb: Fires a slug to a range of 3000 which then detonates and deals 30 damage to all units (enemy and otherwise) within its range (2500). Cooldown: 60 seconds
Notes: This is great for knocking out minefields, plain and simple.

---------------------Cruisers---------------------

Artillery Cruisers: Everybody wants these. AoE attacks, long range, and minimum range. You gotta love em'.

Troop Transports: These carry boarding parties that deal long-term DoT's, but also deal VERY heavy damage to the target. BP's can also be used on your own ships to counteract another faction's use of them.

Defense Cruiser: Currently, the Flak Frigate is just weak. Yes, it does its job, but I don't really like it all that much. This is basically a mini-battleship that can take out SC. For a more complete definition of it, go to my mod's site...

Defense Cruiser [TEC]
Hull: 2300
Shields: 750
AM: 350
Weapons:

Fore: Two H-RF Autocannons 6 DPS, One Missile Tube (when fighting bigger things than SC) 10 DPS

Port/Starboard: Three H-RF Autocannons 8 DPS

Aft: Two Light Autocannons 3 DPS

Total DPS Versus SC: 25

Total DPS: 35

EXP Yielded Upon Death: 125

Abilities:

Fragmentation Rounds: Deals 10 splash damage with all autocannons [Passive]

Volley: Reduces the CD of all autocannons by 40% for 60 seconds. Costs 75 AM

----------------------Capitals--------------------

Destroyer: A lighter and faster version of the Battleship, these are more focused on damage than health. They are also shorter ranged than battleships. In a one-on-one, they would lose to a battleship but would defeat the other type of capital I will suggest...

Eyron Evangelist [Advent]
Fore: one heavy plasma cannon, two heavy beam cannons 23 DPS
Port/Starboard: two medium plasma batteries 11 DPS
Aft: two heavy beam cannons 15 DPS
Total DPS: 60
Shield Composure: Remove 200/300/400 Shield Points from a friendly target to regenerate 100/200/300 Hull Points. Costs 80 AM
Active Harmonization: increase maximum mitigation of the Eyron by 4%/8%/12% [Passive]
Shield Pulse: Damage the shields of a target by 400/600/800. Costs 100 AM.
Shield Detonation: Damages the target for 4500 damage and deals 700 damage to own shields. Costs 80 AM

Gartel Destroyer [TEC]
Fore: three heavy laser cannons 17 DPS
Port/Starboard: two heavy autocannon batteries, one medium laser cannon 18 DPS
Aft: two heavy torpedo launchers 10 DPS
Total DPS: 65
Firefight: Cause all attacks to deal 10/20/30 splash damage and damage the target for 1/2/3 damage for 5/10/15 seconds [Passive]
Cannonade: Increase the damage of all weapons on the Gartel by 115%/120%/125% for 20/30/40 seconds. Costs 60/65/70 AM
Allegiance: Increase damage of a all allied capital ships within a radius of 2000/3000/4000 by 3%/7%/10%. [Passive]
Broadside: Damages all ships on the ship's Port and Starboard sides for 120/240/360 Damage in one massive volley. Costs 70/65/60 AM

Kramrock Dissapator [Vasari]
Fore: two heavy phase missile batteries 15 DPS
Port/Starboard: two very heavy wave cannon batteries 20 DPS
Total DPS: 55
Discouragement: Increase the weapon cooldowns of 3/7/10 enemy ships by 130%/140%/150% for 20/30/40 seconds. Costs 80/70/60 AM.
Extermination: Damage planet for 40/80/120, but kills 50/100/150 population over 30/25/20 seconds. Requires 110/100/90 AM
Subdue: Reduce the damage dealt by an enemy ship by 25%/50%/75% for 10 seconds. Costs 60 AM
Xenocide: Damages all ships in in the gravity well for 300 Damage to hull.

Lancer: a heavy sniper-like capital ship that sits far from the action and deals heavy damage with its axial gun.

Nolane Converter [Advent]
Axial: 1 super heavy beam cannon 30 DPS
Fore: four heavy plasma cannons 65 DPS
Port/Starboard: Two light laser cannons 5 DPS
Total DPS: 105
Mass Conversion: Causes target planet to take 30 damage per second for 20/40/60 seconds
PsiTech Ranging: Increases range of all weapons on the Nolane by 10%/20%/30%. [Passive]
Charged Cannons: Increases weapon damage by 35%/45%/55% and increase cooldown by 10% for 20 seconds. Costs 55/50/50 AM
Apocalypse Summoner: Activates axial cannon and deals 500 DPS for 6 seconds. Costs 120 AM

Astrom Lancer [TEC]
Axial: 1 super heavy autocannon 60 DPS
Fore: 4 heavy laser batteries 60 DPS
Port/Starboard: two light lasers 6 DPS
Total DPS: 136
Emergency Generators: Disables engines, weapons, and abilities of the Astrom to regenerate 8/9/10 AM and 16/18/20 Shield points per second for 20/30/40 seconds. Costs 90 AM
Maximum Firepower: Increases damage of all weapons by 100%/120%/140% for five seconds. Costs 70/65/60 AM. 60/55/50 second cooldown.
Primary Target: Increases damage done by ships within a radius of 1000/1500/2000 to the target by 10%/20%/30% for 30 seconds. Costs 80/90/100 AM.
Railgun: Activates axial cannon and deals 2400 damage to the target. Costs 120 AM

Rashnak Obliterator [Vasari]
Axial: 1 super heavy pulse beam cannon 90 DPS
Fore: 4 heavy phase missile launch tubes 30 DPS
Port/Starboard: 2 light pulse beam cannons 7 DPS
Total DPS: 134
Fear of the Empire: Damages the target and those within a radius of 1000 for 100/200/300 have their attack disabled for 3/4/5 seconds
Phase Cloaking: Phases self out, for 4/5/6 seconds. Costs 90/85/80 AM
Nanite Slugs: causes all weapons to yield a .5/1/1.5 DPS to the target's hull for 10 seconds. (Passive)
Obliteration Cannon: Activates axial cannon and damages the target for 2600. Costs 120 AM

------------------------Strike Craft------------------------

Torpedo Bombers: for use on special carriers, these are similar to normal bombers, but deal far more damage.

Heavy Bomber [TEC]
Ships Per Squad: 2
Ship DPS: 10
Ship Hull: 60
Damage Type: AVH
Weapon Type: Missile
Abilities:

[Automatic] Careful Delivery: Increases DPS by 30% but decreases speed by 25%.

[Researchable] Hull Crusher Torpedo: deals 150 damage to target ship (CD: 360 seconds)
Notes: None

Heavy Bomber [Vasari]
Ships Per Squad: 1
Ship DPS: 25
Ship Hull: 140
Damage Type: AVH
Weapon Type: Pulse Beam Cannon
Abilities:

[Automatic] Load AM: Increases damage dealt by 100% but increases damage received by 60%.

[Researchable] Micro Phase Manipulation: Passively reduces speed of enemy SC within range (3000) by 30%
Notes: None

Heavy Bomber [Advent]
Ships Per Squad: 3
Ship DPS: 6.5
Ship Hull: 35
Damage Type: AVH
Weapon Type: Psi Burst
Abilities:

[Automatic] Telekinetic Bursts: causes all ships hit by this to recoil a slight amount.

[Researchable] Destructive Telekinetic Bursts: Causes target ships to receive a 4 DPS DoT for 20 seconds.
Notes: none...

Interceptors: anti-verylight damage so they are flak firing SC.

Interceptor [TEC]
Ships Per Squad: 3
Ship DPS: 8
Ship Hull: 45
Damage Type: AVL
Weapon Type: Autocannon
Abilities:

[Automatic] Escort: Reduces the damage taken by nearby (within a range of 1000) SC by 40%

[Researchable] Missile Swarm: Damages up to 6 enemy SC in range (2000) for 30/60 (dependent on research level) damage
Notes: The normal TEC fighter would get bumped to using lasers.

Interceptor [Vasari]
Ships Per Squad: 2
Ship DPS: 14
Ship Hull: 70
Damage Type: AVL
Weapon Type: Pulse Cycler
Abilities:

[Automatic] Covering Fire: Reduces the damage dealt by enemy SC within range (1000) by 50%

[Researchable] Dormant Nanites: deals no damage to the SC itself but upon docking with its carrier (working on how to code this) instills a stacking DoT of 15 DPS for 20 seconds
Notes: Normal Fighters get Wave Cannons

Interceptor [Advent]
Ships Per Squad: 5
Ship DPS: 4
Ship Hull: 23
Damage Type: AVL
Weapon Type: Laser
Abilities:

[Researchable] Telekinetic Shield: Reduces damage taken by 40% and returns 250% of the damage to the attacker
Notes: Fighters would get bumped to plasma

Well, I don't know how the formating will look, but there is some data from my mod of new ships...

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Do only the TEC have the minesweeper, troop tranport, and defense cruisers?

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

No, I just didn't feel like copying the other things over...

TT's are pretty generic, but the other two differ by race...

-MS-

Vasari: their MS disables mines and phases them out for nine minutes...

Advent: it causes all mines within a very large radius to come flying at it. It has very high health, so it just waits to get blown up...

-DC-

Vasari

Graviton Warheads: Reduces the speed and increases the CD of of all ships hit by this ship's weapons by 50% and 30% respectively. Only applies via Wave Cannons. [Passive]

Advent

Retribution: Returns 25% of all damage dealt to this unit [Passive]

Inquisition: Reduces damage dealt by all SC within range (3500) by 40% for 10 seconds. Costs 65 AM

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Minesweeper: Detects all mines within a radius of 2500 [Passive]

Neodine Bomb: Fires a slug to a range of 3000 which then detonates and deals 30 damage to all units (enemy and otherwise) within its range (2500). Cooldown: 60 seconds
Notes: This is great for knocking out minefields, plain and simple.

Mines would need to be buffed (heavily) if this unit or something similar were created. Mines are already really easy to avoid and detonate with scouts, but this would allow you to easily detonate an entire minefield in seconds.

Mines are presently regarded as weak and underpowered. Even with the recent buff, they're still really expensive given how easy they are to avoid and counter.

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

I would be going with removing the ability of the scout to find them. Also, they would be buffed...

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I like the new SC upgrades, but I'd think that actual new SC would be better if they were used to counter specific threats. For example, something like this.

Fighter- Counters lightly-armored targets, same as normal.

Bomber- Counters heavily-armored targets, same as normal.

Interceptor- Counters other SC.

Adaptive Fighter- Can damage all targets for decent damage, but doesn't specifically counter any ship.

I was thinking about an SC that counters heavy armor, but it'd make LFs completely obsolete. Also, after thinking; why don't SC have any upgrades? I'd understand that they are essentially a Carrier's weapons, but SC count as units. I was thinking of just a single upgrade for each faction; all being passive to obviously remove micromanagement.

TEC; Improved Firepower

Passive; increases damage output of all SC by 75/150%, decreases cooldown for SC weapons by 75/150%.

Advent; Shield Bestowal

Passive; all Advent SC gain 5/10 shields.

Vasari; Phase Drive Integration

Passive; has a 10/20% percent to initiate a short in-gravity well phase jump to move closer to targets.

OR

Engine Disruption

Passive; SC Phase Missiles have a 15/30% percent chance to cause their target to reduce speed by 10/20% for 30 seconds.

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Adaptive Fighter- Can damage all targets for decent damage, but doesn't specifically counter any ship.

This is exactly the same as my fighter-bomber idea, but with a different name.

I don't think that troop transports would work in this game imo.

I can see why people want lots of intermediate roles (small carrier with flak, medium carrier and super carrier etc.), but lots of these units would be completely useless.

Adding units for the sake of it doesn't add anything gameplay wise, it just means that there would be more useless units. Adding units with the same role, but different strengths is not a good solution because it will basically mean that some units become useless late game and thus a waste of money even with upgrades. If early game units with upgrades are still useful late game then there is no point in getting late game units as you can improve what you already have.

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

Okay, I'm gonna list tiers and the point of each thing...

MS: to destroy enemy mines/ tier 4-5

TT: to carry unique forms of SC that can attack enemy vessels, heal yours, and invade planets/tier 5-6

Defense Cruiser: designed for late game fleets and to function as a multi-purpose unit. Should be used in conjunction with carriers, HC's, and LRF's to deal good damage in the late game. The reason is that HC's don't really fill the omni-counter role as they should. They are great against larger targets, but are doomed against LRF swarms. For this reason, the DC deals anti-light damage so it can take out LRF's and fighters. It does have larger weapons though that allow it to take out larger targets, but just not as effectively. And no, it does not make the FF obsolete./tier 7

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Name: Intruder

Description: A ship specialized in infiltration, stealth operations, intelligence gathering and sabotages..

Abilities: Stealth generator, Attach probe, Disrupt target

Name: ACT-200 Transport

Description: Armored troop transport

Abilities: Capture target, Invade planet

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One of the reasons why I am interested in new ship ideas/abilities is that at some point, there is no new development in a long game. If you get to the point where stars are locked down with fleets and starbases, you arent going anywhere. All research is done, fleet capacity is used, all CS are level 10s. All thats left is making a ton of money and superweapons. and thats boooooooring. New ship types allow for the possibilty for late game esearch and ship creation. Thats why I alike the idea of giant ships that are expensive as hell to make, and hard to kill. Give it sheild restore abilities, a lot of flak, and then give it one super gun or something. So this thing doesnt just wipe out fleets. like Cleansing Brilliance as its only offensive weapon. This unit exists only to make for assaulting a heavily heavily fortified postion survivable.

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It'd be better just to add more research levels. It'd keep you spending longer and allow you to take more paths in shorter games. (full defense, mixed offense, etc). New ships in a triangle warefare game just throw everything off.

Though, thinking about it, it'd be cool if Diplomacy added a way to sabatoge research to make the enemy lose that particular one and have to research it again. Not just destroying his stations but the research itself. Also a way to lower fleet supply either through mutiny or active choice.

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The problem with just increasing levels of research is that either you are researching the same things that we have now and it just takes you longer and more money (zzzzz) or you are researching more levels of the same thing, increaing whatever that thing is (even more range for seige frigates?) and thats also pretty dull. If you want to increase the research tree itself then new things have to be added, either abilities or new ships. I dont know if people want to increase antimatter regen by another 5% all THAT much.

Distant Stars mod has Electronic Warfare bombers and SC that do damage over time with a disable for passive regen, i think that is pretty sweet too.

If we go to Honorverse or the Starfire series, we could put in missle pods too. Like a single phase lane assuAlt device that you build in one GW, and send to the next for a huge first barrage that you could follow in; be it disabling abilities, making it seem like there are more ships, or doing damage.

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Volt, what is your mod?

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Volt_Cruelerz

Join Date 06/2008

+115

It is titled Fleet Diversification with more or less the sole purpose of adding new ships to the game and adjusting the balance of the current ships... It is mostly conceptual at this point, though I have coded the abilities for many of the ships and a couple of the capitals. I also have models for all the capitals as the Destroyers and Lancers are the primary focus of the mod.

Here is the official forum of it: auroragames.lefora.com

It contains much of the technical data, although not all of it is completely accurate as some pieces were changed when coding it.

There is also a thread about it on the forums in the mod section... It should also be noted that the mod is dormant as my partner has been offline for quite some time and with my AP classes/classes outside of school, it is difficult to find time, although I will likely have some spare time next week...

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