[Balance] I think the biggest issue right now is priests scaling heals.

Quoting Obscenitor,

1v1 is a skewed way of testing one Demigod over another. Some demigods do more damage than other. Some have more support. That is done by design. Demigod was not made with a 1v1 mindset. The only way to tell if something is really overpowered is in multiple team games over time with organized sides and if one thing really carries one side to victory constantly then you have a balance issue. You cannot gauge a Demigod's power by putting him or her up 1v1. A demigod's power is determined in a team setting. Not on an individual level.Your logic is self-defeating. You believe balancing around 3s is impossible, so it must be completely impossible to use 5s to determine whether a DG is too strong.
Honestly I think your interpretation of this game's methodology is completely off. No DG in this game is designed with the old school RPG mentality of being dependent on other characters to do anything. Rook is slow, but he has bonus HP to help make up for it, Regulus has low HP but range to make up for it. Rook is not so slow that he can't run at all and he can still use teleports, Regulus is not so fragile that he can't take a hit.

All characters have powerful defensive items available to them, the majority of HP comes from equipment. The healers have their own powerful attack skills. This isn't dungeons and dragons or shining force or whatever. The characters are designed to be effective in small encounters, including solo. Some have advantages and disadvantages, but not as extreme as you think they do.

Man you are so fking right!! I mean how cam you win vs a team of 5 UBs?

Every Demigod is not compeltely made for teamplay, they are also made for 1vs1 and so on. This is not WoW.

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my house rule is that an argument is automatically forfeited by the first person to make a WoW reference.

kidding aside. i do agree with the general statement that while the game isn't balanced for EVERY possible map and team setup its pretty important that its at least close with every setup. so while maybe 3v3 or 5v5 is the MOST balanced, the game should still be at least somewhat balanced for 1v1 or 2v2.

regarding the original topic:

i completely agree with TDude. priest summon idols are the strongest items in the game, for their gold cost. they should probably be modified in one of two ways. these are my suggestions:

1. remain percentage based but have a hard cap. for example, high priests will heal 20% of max health but not exceed 750 points during a heal. so any max health above 3750 wouldn't make the priests heal anymore, they'd just be capped at 750 once you hit 3750 max health.

2. priests should just heal a flat amount. say 20/400/600/800 for each level of priest Idol.

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If preists do not scale, they will be OP or useless depending how much fixed healing they do. If it was too little, they would be OK early and useless mid and late game. If its too much, they would be OP early and blalanced mid to late game.

% works perfectly and as mentioned before, DGs are different with their abilities, damage and support. I wish the heals did not get affected by Sigil tho it makes it that much more powerful in hands of a general than an Assasin.

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Quoting ibrahimhmz,

reply 28

If preists do not scale, they will be OP or useless depending how much fixed healing they do. If it was too little, they would be OK early and useless mid and late game. If its too much, they would be OP early and blalanced mid to late game.

as you level up, you buy higher level priests... scaling right there. make the higher level ones cost more, and heal more if necessary to be useful end game. fixed healing numbers could easily work, and would be more in alignment with demigod abilities.

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Quoting ed anger,

reply 29

Quoting ibrahimhmz,
reply 28
If preists do not scale, they will be OP or useless depending how much fixed healing they do. If it was too little, they would be OK early and useless mid and late game. If its too much, they would be OP early and blalanced mid to late game.

as you level up, you buy higher level priests... scaling right there. make the higher level ones cost more, and heal more if necessary to be useful end game. fixed healing numbers could easily work, and would be more in alignment with demigod abilities.

This. I'm not really qualified to talk on balance, but from what I've seen (and used) health stacking+healing wind 2+Bishops can get insane. That's 22% of your health every 8 seconds. I've gotten healed for over 1200 hp before (that's with about 5500 max hp, which is quite easily obtainable with the fortitude flag). I don't have a solution, but from my experience monks/bishops seem to be a bit strong.

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Quoting Legolan,

reply 30

Quoting ed anger, reply 29

Quoting ibrahimhmz,
reply 28
If preists do not scale, they will be OP or useless depending how much fixed healing they do. If it was too little, they would be OK early and useless mid and late game. If its too much, they would be OP early and blalanced mid to late game.

as you level up, you buy higher level priests... scaling right there. make the higher level ones cost more, and heal more if necessary to be useful end game. fixed healing numbers could easily work, and would be more in alignment with demigod abilities.

This. I'm not really qualified to talk on balance, but from what I've seen (and used) health stacking+healing wind 2+Bishops can get insane. That's 22% of your health every 8 seconds. I've gotten healed for over 1200 hp before (that's with about 5500 max hp, which is quite easily obtainable with the fortitude flag). I don't have a solution, but from my experience monks/bishops seem to be a bit strong.

HP STACKING IS TOO CHEAP & STRONG

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Quoting JuareZz,

reply 31

Quoting Legolan,
reply 30

Quoting ed anger, reply 29

Quoting ibrahimhmz,
reply 28
If preists do not scale, they will be OP or useless depending how much fixed healing they do. If it was too little, they would be OK early and useless mid and late game. If its too much, they would be OP early and blalanced mid to late game.

as you level up, you buy higher level priests... scaling right there. make the higher level ones cost more, and heal more if necessary to be useful end game. fixed healing numbers could easily work, and would be more in alignment with demigod abilities.

This. I'm not really qualified to talk on balance, but from what I've seen (and used) health stacking+healing wind 2+Bishops can get insane. That's 22% of your health every 8 seconds. I've gotten healed for over 1200 hp before (that's with about 5500 max hp, which is quite easily obtainable with the fortitude flag). I don't have a solution, but from my experience monks/bishops seem to be a bit strong.

HP STACKING IS TOO CHEAP & STRONG

Your point? Until they fix it I'm using it, heck, I was in essence agreeing with you, so why the all caps no punctuation exclamation?

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Also to you guys saying that priests don't scale, why do I constantly see players buying minotaurs and siege idols (when the siege idols aren't even used to siege outside of tower range, just as part of a minion swarm)?

Don't forget priests do plenty of damage and are resilient themselve, and their damage/armor/hp will always scale with items.

Lemme also point out that there are plenty of DPS artifacts which are fantastic. What makes these items good is that they tend to either provide defense, regen (in some cases via lifesteal), mana, or some other effect in addition to their obvious damage bonuses.

I think most gloves should be given a bit of health, armor, or regen rather than have their damage buffed up the wazoo, because let's face it, you're always going to need to health stack to survive something like spit+pounce>foul grasp>spit+pounce. If you want your 2k health general to be able to push back against another solitatary general that's all fine and dandy, but you're never going to be able to buff your damage items to a point that makes them preferable to actually being able to survive for 10 seconds without breaking the game.

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Quoting ibrahimhmz,

reply 28

If preists do not scale, they will be OP or useless depending how much fixed healing they do. If it was too little, they would be OK early and useless mid and late game. If its too much, they would be OP early and blalanced mid to late game.

Items and abilities that have +health regen are fixed values, yet many players feel they are useful. I don't think they are overpowered. Priest heals with fixed values would be identical to +health regen with fixed values.

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Hmmm... I believe this is one of the many reasons QoT sucks.

If you're stacking mana to keep your allies and yourself shielded, then you're not taking full advantage of having monks/bishops: Your health will be low so you won't get healed as much and when your shield is on you're missing out on them healing.

Sure you could play her as a tank, but whats the point of trying to make her something that she's not? If you want a tank general, just play oak... or the vamp... or even sedna.

Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread since there are already an abundance of "Queen Sucks" threads already, but I'm just stoked to finally figure out why she blows and am ready to quit playing her and get my win percentage up. Played Oak for the first time in a LONG time last night and soundly beat some guys 2 v 3... didn't realy use a build, just stacked HP items and got bishops ASAP. Of course, this is the Demigod forums so y'all know that there is no other viable strategy to HP stacking. However, even though the guys we played weren't noobs, they hadn't been clued into that its essential to stack health so they didn't really have a chance no matter how much they farmed our AI.

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Stacking HP is although dominant not the only viable strategy. Speed stack, minion buffage work well too. But major damage stack doesnt work, because gloves well...suck. The best damage item isn't even an hand garment.

@Obscenitor, I think I agree with you that some health stacking is always important but right now damage items(except artifacts) are just really bad. To combat the fragility-phenomon you are describing I would suggest there be added in more useable item that can safe you from these things other than health stacking. IE: wand of speed, orb of defiance(cheaper please). Maybe be an item that "suppresses"debuffs for a short time, or lowers all incoming damage. Or ability resistance items, or warp items or area sleep abilities/items or fear or stealth/invisibility(oh yeah and more truesight items also). In short: less passive defense stacking more active defense!

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@Obscenitor, I think I agree with you that some health stacking is always important but right now damage items(except artifacts) are just really bad. To combat the fragility-phenomon you are describing I would suggest there be added in more useable item that can safe you from these things other than health stacking. IE: wand of speed, orb of defiance(cheaper please). Maybe be an item that "suppresses"debuffs for a short time, or lowers all incoming damage. Or ability resistance items, or warp items or area sleep abilities/items or fear or stealth/invisibility(oh yeah and more truesight items also

). In short: less passive defense stacking more active defense!

I like the idea of more skill and timing-based defense, but you've gotta admit it'd be way simpler to just put some health, armor, or regen onto the gloves. Also those activated defenses might actually be pretty negative for overall balance since they'd be fantastic against something like a fire TB or mines regulus but ineffective against someone with constant damage like UB and minion swarms.

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Quoting lifekatana,

reply 36

Stacking HP is although dominant not the only viable strategy. Speed stack, minion buffage work well too. But major damage stack doesnt work, because gloves well...suck. The best damage item isn't even an hand garment.

@Obscenitor, I think I agree with you that some health stacking is always important but right now damage items(except artifacts) are just really bad. To combat the fragility-phenomon you are describing I would suggest there be added in more useable item that can safe you from these things other than health stacking. IE: wand of speed, orb of defiance(cheaper please). Maybe be an item that "suppresses"debuffs for a short time, or lowers all incoming damage. Or ability resistance items, or warp items or area sleep abilities/items or fear or stealth/invisibility(oh yeah and more truesight items also). In short: less passive defense stacking more active defense!

I'd rather the double crit chance most days and the +10 HPS than another 600 hitpoints..

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Just buff the gloves, they are underpowered. +30 dmg vs +750 hp. HM needs more than 40 hits (armor ~35-40%) to compensate.

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For example: say two generals harass each other over a couple of minutes. They both have priest minions. One has 4k HP and the other has 2k HP. Not only does the lower HP player have to harass for twice as long (which is what having double HP should roughly do), but that player has to break through twice as powerful free healing.

It would do the game good to have all priest type characters (both reinforcement and idols) changed to heal for fixed amounts.

yes but WHY ON EARTH the general with 2k hp should stand a chance with a general with 4k hp?

I think the above is a good counterargument to the OP. With preists healing a percentage, it reflects the powerfulness of the DG that they are healing.

If you went fixed, then a low HP DG would get massive healing, while a later game DG would get a worthless amount of HP.

A high HP Demigod is more difficult to kill than a low HP DG, given similar other stats such as armor. Percentile healing does not break this relationship. There is symmetry between the two.

Yet, I can see how the OP's argument against percentile based healing makes sense, as a very high HP Demigod may simply shrug off even powerful attacks because he recieves so many HP per heal. I've seen this kind of frustrating healing in other games that use a similar mechanism. But I still believe that using a fixed HP heal is not a proper fix, for reasons stated above.

An earlier post suggested that buying more expensive preists acts as a scaling heal, so fixed HP healing is fine. The issue is, what if the player saves all his cash and buys the best preist in the early game? They will then be getting healing that may be so powerful it gives over 100% of their total HP! For fixed HP healing to work, the expensive preists will be giving a very large amount of HP so it is useful for later game Demigods.

I suggest that we keep percentile based healing, but only the base max HP is considered, with no modifiers for items or spells. That should keep HP stacking DGs from becoming invincible due to massive heals.

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