Is the AI bad? » Forum Post by HubridNoxx

If you are new at the game it will provide a sufficient challenge, but if you have been playing sins for a while, the ai is a joke. If you get more skilled at the game it is far better to play online because then you will find it more than difficult.

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I won't say it sucks sucks, considering the size of Ironclad (let face it it is a small starter company despit its current success) and the game engine it self, it isn't bad at all.

Let face it, the AI, in here, given the complexities of the game and its physic engine makes the game better than Starcraft (Starcraft is good because of the story line)

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I'm interested to see what things you vets think the AI does that make it a joke.

I mean, I've noticed stuff like strange build priorities (anearly-game Advent fleet with 2 Revelations as the only cap ships) or attacking the same place over and over again, rather than finding a weak-point to exploit. What other stuff have you noticed?

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Well, sure, the AI is limiting, but give it a 5 minute head start on an insane aggressive (I am not talking about 1 insane ai, talking here about 9 other insane ai), fight it, and post again. Sure building is very limiting, fighting is very limiting also, send in a small fleet, and the total of enemy ships outnumber me at least 3 to 1, Ai runs.

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Depends on your perspective, really. In comparison to other AI's for RTS games, the AI is actually pretty solid. It's got its weak points, but nothing too serious. However, it's a mere shadow of what a player is capable of. It all depends on what level you play at.

I always bring up the example of Starcraft mission 3 in contexts like these. The mission is notorious for being ruthlessly difficult for a beginner. However, if you finish the game (don't cheat now ) and go back to play the mission again, you'll find it quite easy. The challenges of the later missions of the game have made you a better player, and mission 3 is now something to laugh about.

So, it depends on where you stand.

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the ai is pretty bad, they should make the ai moddable in the next patch or expansion

usually in my games i fortify alot, and wait to have a large surplus of income before building anything of a fleet, relying on fortifications... unfortunatly, the ai are scared to death of anything more than 10 beam platforms, and will sit there with 7 other ai just outside of your territory forever.... by the time you send a fleet out to lay waste all they do is flee

ive tryed with as many as 9 very hard ai all allied and set to aggressive.... dosent help.

if they worked together, it would make for more interesting games, heck, even if they dident, and just massed a big fleet and threw it at me hopelessly... it would be more interesting than the past few games i have played...

i really like this game, but there is no point in playing it if the ai dont do anything.

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im fairly sure the Ai is getting a makeover in the next X-pack, i mean, it'll have to to cope with the new functionality, so i dont see why they wont upgrade tactical abilities at the same time

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i just really hope it will be moddable, there are alot of talented people in the modding section that can probably do good things with the ai.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting mwdowns,

reply 3

I'm interested to see what things you vets think the AI does that make it a joke.

I mean, I've noticed stuff like strange build priorities (anearly-game Advent fleet with 2 Revelations as the only cap ships) or attacking the same place over and over again, rather than finding a weak-point to exploit. What other stuff have you noticed?

It doesn't build the best caps. It tends to build more caps than it should. It doesn't upgrade the capital ships' abilities in the order it should. It doesn't use the abilities at strategic times.

It does a horrible job of micro-managing its ships.

It can't react to what opponents are doing in terms of building counter-units the way a human player can.

It can't make assessments as to when and where to attack as well as a human can.

It spams out seige frigates and then sends them to enemy planets, undefended, often to their deaths.

It won't feed other players on its team credits or resources.

(The list could go on.)

-----------------------

AI is just limited in what it can do regardless of whether you're playing Sins, Civilzation, Alpha Centauri, or a first person shooter. It's possible to allow the AI to "cheat" and to give it huge advantages, but that really isn't the same as playing against an opponent that gets a fair start. There just isn't any substitute for playing with and against other people. The good news is that you can do it thanks to online multiplayer. Besides, which dialog would you rather read on your screen:

AI: "I have a present for you in route to planet Eudoxis." (Why should the opponent give you tha info anyway?)

Humans:

Player 1: "What are you guys chuckling about over there? What do you have up your sleeve?"

Player 2: "Let's just say that it's like a giant space penis slowly approaching you from behind."

(Everyone laughs and some people laugh their soft drinks up into their noses.)

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting adecoy95,

reply 6

i really like this game, but there is no point in playing it if the ai dont do anything.

Have you considered online multiplayer? You do have a choice...really...there is another way to play the game than just playing with and against the AI.

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No, the AI does not suck. Compared to other RTS it uses a lot more clever techniques.

After you've been playing some time you will be able to beat the AI no problem because you have worked out some niches in it's armour and how and where it is likely to attack, tell me an RTS AI that isn't like that?

You can then just stack the teams a little to make it challenging. You and an AI vs 3 AI for example and ramp it up, as long as you don't require fair sides to have fun you'll never have a problem.

PS Can you ask your friend which RTS he/she has played where the AI doesn't suck?

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

I modded the game file to have even larger fleets, and increased the speed of ships. Altered the galaxy file to have more planets anf more starting resources. Then set the AI on unfair...

...when our two huge fleets finally met I lost 1 HC (because it followed their retreating fleet to a planet all by itself lol) and 17 LRMs during ensuing battles. I erased the AI's ass.

Looking at the stats the AI had actually spent more money on ships than me, but could not have done much, or the right, military research. It's the only way I could have been so dominant.

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AI = a joke,

tactics are ... dumb, wil rush straight into a minefield and 2 starbases (even if his fleet couldnt have taken out a single starbase) (i DO admit, being dumb has its advantages... i'd never anticipated that he'd attack that useless roid over a lightly defended terran, (thus my fleet was at the wrong location, and i ended up losing the roid and 2 nearby worlds b4 i pushed him off)

1 thing 2 note

Unfair ai, plays... unfair he cheats, has unlimiteed rec's, and playing 4 unfair ai's vs 1 player = more than a challenge

(i just barely won a 2 humans vs 4 unfair ai's took us long enough... (8 hours (2 days of playing saves

its tactics might stil suck, but they just keep coming on unfair (it's like achieving 1.000.000:1 kil ratio (and rising...)

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

The AI has some holes. I haven't tried in 1.0.3 yet, but in 1.0.2 Entrenchment the AI simply couldn't handle Starbases at a sun. I'd drop one in the sun and build max squadrons at it. The AI would blissfully fly by on it's way to attack some planet somewhere, and get completely ripped to shreds by the squadrons. (It got really ugly when I upgraded to four Starbases with max squadrons.)

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Compared to an experienced person yes of course the AI falls short. That's called reality for a while yet - Deep Blue was needed to equal the best human chess player and Sins is just a bit more complex and variable than chess

Compared to other RTS AIs it's much better than average and only getting better as they tweak it and release more content. IC obviously didn't treat it as an afterthought like so many other RTS devs and I'm grateful since I only play SP.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Sadly, we wouldn't need to have this debate if people could get over their fears of playing the game in online multiplayer. You just have to accept that sometimes you might get beaten and humiliated. However, while the lows might be lower than the lows of playing against the AI, the highs will be much higher.

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The AI is not too bad - so I would not say that it sucks as such, I mainly play single player so I've had a fair chance to test it out. It is a little concerning though as alot of the multiplayer tweaks seem to be making it play worse, although I can't be sure, it seems to have been doing more stupid things with each patch.

As for multiplayer, well I would like to play more - however, for me, its not about getting beaten and humiliated (as this will happen) - its the abuse that stops me from playing online.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

What specific abuse are you referring to? I really don't think there's all that much abuse online; these concerns that people have are real but overblown IMHO. Remember...these guys are all hundreds of miles away from you and you aren't even on voice comm. Just do your thing and ignore other people. Wha's the worst they can do to you? Try to hurt your feelings with nasty comments? Think of it as an exercise in growing a thicker skin.

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Quoting Haree78,

reply 11

No, the AI does not suck. Compared to other RTS it uses a lot more clever techniques.

After you've been playing some time you will be able to beat the AI no problem because you have worked out some niches in it's armour and how and where it is likely to attack, tell me an RTS AI that isn't like that?

You can then just stack the teams a little to make it challenging. You and an AI vs 3 AI for example and ramp it up, as long as you don't require fair sides to have fun you'll never have a problem.

PS Can you ask your friend which RTS he/she has played where the AI doesn't suck?

i could be wrong, but company of heroes has an incredible ai in that game, even on normal difficulty it beats me about half the time... it depends on the map tho, the ai can be scary on maps like hill 331

they also use their patch efforts on upgrading their ai, not just balance changes, something every rts should do....

Quoting CenturionJixra,

reply 10

Quoting adecoy95, reply 6i really like this game, but there is no point in playing it if the ai dont do anything.
Have you considered online multiplayer? You do have a choice...really...there is another way to play the game than just playing with and against the AI.

only games i will play online are co-op

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I am only just now about to try playing on hard. So far the Normal AI is impressive in a few ways, and unimpressive in many others. If it wasn't for some very obvious things that the AI does wrong, it would be ok. Some of the things it does wrong on Normal are:

never purchases capital ship levels
never buys all planet upgrades
never builds as much structures as it could, including refinery's and trade ports, but especially defensive structures. at most there will be like 3 or 4 turrets and a hanger bay around the resources or something, when you have the capacity to build waaaay more than that. even asteroids can have enough defensive structures to survive pirate attacks unaided, but when I scout a big planet theres hardly any defence.
doesn't research properly, even with hours of peace-time passing by
doesn't prioritize in combat. sometimes its worth losing an armada to take out one or two enemy ships. sometimes its worth losing an armada to save one or two friendly ships. at the very least it should be able to retreat a high level capital ship that is taking too much damage without having to scrap the entire battle.

some of that may be due to the fact that I'm on normal, but I guess I'll find out shortly.

Some of the things I have found to be a bit impressive compared to the above:

seems to be good at timing attacks. often find myself having to simultaneously fight off pirates and one or more other factions at the same time.
it will try and bombard your planet from any safe hole you have left open
when fighting militarily has failed, they tend to go nuts with culture, which was a pain the first time, but is fairly easy to deal with now

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Quoting CenturionJixra,

reply 16

Sadly, we wouldn't need to have this debate if people could get over their fears of playing the game in online multiplayer. You just have to accept that sometimes you might get beaten and humiliated. However, while the lows might be lower than the lows of playing against the AI, the highs will be much higher.

Playing online is completely different than playing against the CPU; they are two different things; both are fun in their own way. Basically, it is fun to lose to the computer, and it is fun to win against a human. Its a little fun to win against the computer, and its not fun to lose to a human.

The main thing with online play is that it requires a huge energy investment, assuming you want to compete. Humans aren't just a little better than CPU's, they're immensly better. On the one hand, its nice that the elevated level of competition will bring out new strategies, and just plain make you better at the game in every way, but on the other hand, it throws the relaxation and stress relief aspects of the game out the window. To anyone playing the game the least bit casually, online isn't really a great choice.

Also, there is an element of "fun" to be had playing vs AI's. It's *fun* to be outsmarted by the AI, and its likewise fun to outsmart the AI. Its to be expected that the AI will be a little on the stupid side, its just not fun when the AI is unnecessarily stupid.

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I am yet to meet a game where there aren't players who call the AI a joke. I mean, have you been to the Empire TW forums recently? Just because you can beat it doesn't mean everyone else can. People have wildly over-expectant ideas of how good AI is going to be, when lets face it, a good human player can trounce anything. To make a really good AI takes years and years and collossal amounts of processing power. Pointless for computer games.

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Quoting adecoy95,

reply 19

i could be wrong, but company of heroes has an incredible ai in that game, even on normal difficulty it beats me about half the time... it depends on the map tho, the ai can be scary on maps like hill 331

they also use their patch efforts on upgrading their ai, not just balance changes, something every rts should do....

I'm struggling to believe this one, I played Relic's previous game, Dawn of War, pretty much the same engine. The AI in that game was so terrible, didn't tech up properly, didn't build tier 2 defences, made stuuuuupid build order decisions, if it wasn't for the Skirmish AI mod team I would never have played the game.

Ignore the guy banging his drums about multiplayer he does it in every single player based thread, he knows full well why people play against AI instead of people, he's had it explained countless times.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting Haree78,

reply 23

Ignore the guy banging his drums about multiplayer he does it in every single player based thread, he knows full well why people play against AI instead of people, he's had it explained countless times.

I'm an unappologetic crusader for online multiplayer and I think it's a tragedy that only a small percentage of the people who purchased this game ever contemplated coming online. So, when someone puts up a thread complaining about the AI's lack of strategic decision making, it's an open invitation to encourage people to come try the game online. People have a great many misconceptions about online multiplayer and I want to clear them up and help them overcome their fear of getting beaten up by experienced players.

+1

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Quoting CenturionJixra,

reply 18

What specific abuse are you referring to? I really don't think there's all that much abuse online; these concerns that people have are real but overblown IMHO. Remember...these guys are all hundreds of miles away from you and you aren't even on voice comm. Just do your thing and ignore other people. Wha's the worst they can do to you? Try to hurt your feelings with nasty comments? Think of it as an exercise in growing a thicker skin.

very funny how i c you talking about that, i remeber it the other way around?

some peopel onlien are jerks, and somehow cannot understand that people play games for FUN

i rarely see any new guys or "normal" guys act like a jerk

in fact, it's usualy the players that have played longer "call it experience if u like..." that start raging and flaming becuase they lose,

so yes, online you will be humiliated, win or loss they'll call you things u didnt even know existed

the only solution is to move on, find people that play for fun, there are some, just hard 2 know when u found one

(i keep meeting people that seem nice @ first, it's fine when they win, but when they lose, it's all their teammates fault (flaming & namecalling included)

AI doesnt do that, so that makes (on average) the ai more fun 2 play with, as theres no risk of meeting these type of people (ofc if u have some buddy's online u know from somewhere else......

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