Since I've still got a couple minutes until my job interview, I'll refine what I said even more:

I do not know your friend; I don't know what she is like, I don't know anything about her. All I have when it comes to what happened is your word. I'm taking your word for it KFC, but, as my nature dictates...I'm still skeptical. That's just my nature, which I cannot change. Anytime I hear about something having happened, I take it as hearsay and suspicious - even if it is from my dearest friends. *shrugs* Again, it's the way I am.

That being said, as such, I leave it open to the fact that either:

A) She didn't do it, and the man was wrong.

She did do it, and the man was right.

Admittedly, I'm actually leaning more toward A. Oddly enough...

That help?

~Alderic

This makes me giggle, only because it was the same thing my father thought....and now he has anywhere from 13 to 36 children. Anyways, setting aside the personal dealings - I'm not quite sure I get your point, mind clarifying?

First off, my apologies. When I say you, or your (or the like) - it's mean in a very generalized, rhetorical way.

What gets me ticked off, is when there are those who claim to be doing God's work, but only make things worse. Yes, they have their beliefs and the freedom of speech, but those are not the only things in the wordl and their belief is not the only belief in the world. If these people, the ones that are adding to the chaos, were...wise, or aware enough - then that is great, no, fantastic.

Perhaps, I can't say much because I don't believe in there being one truth.

Exactly, respect. That's what I keep trying to hit at. Both sides in this so called "Culture War," fail to respect each other. And that goes for atheists, liberals, secularists, etc as much as it does for their opposites.

Hence, live and let live. The world has enough chaos and disorder and hate and violence - with or without God - why add to the destruction? Why cause more problems?

Really, all I ask/expect in a debate is respect, and an attempt to try to step outside of that box they build for themselves. Take a look at things through other people's eyes, because maybe, just maybe...in it can be found a way to heal the world.

You know?

~Alderic

In response, use your own words:

I agree...there certainly are those persons in the homosexual lifestyle who live very quiet and discreet lives.  

nope, not buying it.  You have nothing to back this up with do you?  It's one thing to make a claim........ I can show you again and again your subjectiveness and contrary spirit when it comes to the opposite side.  I'm not like that at all.  I've gone against people who may be on my side of things if I see error involved.  I'm not blind nor do I consider myself very subjective in most cases.  I try very hard to be objective and truthful even at the cost of losing friends if I have to.  Although I learned a long time ago that it's better to lose an argument than a friend.  It doesn't mean tho, that I'm going to automatically take their side to keep their friendship especially if I think they are in error. 

Take Lula and I for example.  I love Lula yet I'm not willing to give her a pass automatically and anyone who has watched us in action can see that.  I am a Christian with very strong religious views but I don't automatically take the religionists' side without thoughtfully examining the issue at stake.  I'm probably 50% when it comes to taking their side depending on the variables involved.  I'm not going to take someone's side just because they're a Christian.  That's not my plumbline. 

You, on the other hand, are so subjective on what is dear to your heart...... say the gay issue since that's been discussed quite a bit here.    It doesn't matter what the gay side did, you alway jump to their defense.  Just like I showed you here.  But also when I wrote about Miss Calif getting fired you automatically said she didn't keep her contract.  Yet, when I asked you what rules she broke you mealy mouthed your answer admitting you had no knowledge.  But that's not going to change your attitude towards her.  In your eyes she's still guilty because she's not on the gay side. 

You are very subjective and not at all showing me that you can be objective about these matters.  So when I write it's very predictable what you are going to say.  I don't even have to hear your response.  I know pretty much which way you are going to automatically come down in the discussion.   

I feel you're trying my patience Lucas and I have to admit, it's not my long suit.     

Ok, fair enough.  I mean 'gods' law does say 'thou shall not lie with a man as you would a woman, unless of course you are randy and there are only men around'.

Does that mean you don't find anything 'against nature' when people in jail bugger each other?

Or the example of male-male pairs hatching and rearing eggs (produced by a third party of course).  Nothing like human examples.

etc etc.

But if it happens in nature it can not be 'unnatural'.

We are animals.  We are all animals.  Look it up.

Oh, ok then *backs away slowly while destroying all evidence that all humans are mammals and all mammals animals'.

Do you have a comment about the gay prision thing still being unnatural when it happens in nature, and not just in zoos or the like?  (please bear in mind the definations of the words, you know the actual definations)

The mice said that?  Hmm.

God tells us that on the same day He made all animals that walk on the earth (the sixth day), He created man separately in His own image with the intent that man would have dominion over every other living thing on Earth.   From this it is clear that there is no animal that is man’s equal, and certainly none his ancestor.

Here's a quote from a Dr. David Pilbeam who is a distinguished Professor of anthropology

"Perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does about how humans came about. But that is heresy"   (American Scientist 1978)

No, we humans are not animals nor were we once created or evolved from them.  God created man as a crown of his creation giving man dominion over the animals.  We were made in his image to give him glory. 

We are humans.  Not animals. But if you'd rather call yourself an animal......well that's up to you. 

Unconstitutional? So would that mean that all such laws, regardless of who they apply to - are unconstitutional. I'd like to see your basis for this assetion.

I have! Hence:

Lula, you're just not seeing it. Yes, I admit that I am subjective when it comes to the issue because it's dear to my heart, but I'm sorry, it just doesn't excuse the injustice and bigotry that is prevalant.

Lula, my point isn't what you claim your intentions are, but what your actions show and the consequences from them. You may love the individual to high heaven, but you know...not everyone will see that. There are those who see your attack on their lifestyles (because their lifestyle is who they are, just like your being a christian is who you are...) as an attack on them. It's the same as when you feel attacked by secularists or atheists. Ok?

You see, my morals are not relative in the sense that they change constantly. I am merely aware enough to realize that not everyone is the same and that some, like you, view things differently and so on.

What I am trying to defend, is NOT the pushing of things onto others, but the rights of others...to live their lives as they see fit and to just love who they love, and have a life that doesn't include bigotry, hate, ignorance, etc. I'm on the side of love, peace, free will, justice, knowledge,etc. So, will I continue to fight for those who are being treated wrongly due to their sexual orientation or diginity? Yes. Will I also fight for those who are religious to believe what they want? Yes. And in fact, I believe that blood should be taken on the basis of whether or not the blood is good - not who/what they are. I do feel that the policy that is in place is fueled by ignorance and should be changed.

That's fine, I understand that not everyone can, but don't force others to accept your viewpoint, or as law; the world isn't just about you and your beliefs.

That being said, there is a difference between making someone accept it - and having it available for those who wish to obtain an abortion. I don't see how having the option out there as forcing it down your throat, perhaps you could enlighten me?

Congratulations!  And PETA is presently in a dither over Obama's swatting a fly?

Ok, Lucas, but if you're going to have a strong stance at least please back it up before you jump on the opposite bandwagon.  

I think what you're seeing in me is my bias towards what you call my religion.  I'm the first to admit I have bias.  But you know what?  Everyone has bias.  But that's a diff animal than what we are talking about here.  Even though I'm biased when it comes to anything dealing with God or biblical doctrine I'll be the first to admit if I see something wrong from another person just like me, or if I do it myself. 

You have bias as well but you're not being very subjective or at least showing it here within your biased attitude.  You automatically jump to the side that is as close to you as you can without knowing all the facts.  That's what I'm talking about.  I have no probem with your bias and can respect that's where you're coming from....even if I disagee.  That's not what's bugging me here. 

So I guess what I'm saying is it's ok to have your bias and be objective as well even if it means you're going against those that are of the same ilk.  Wrong is wrong.  For me, wrong is wrong even if they are a Christian.  For you wrong is wrong even if they are homosexual. 

nice answer.  Calling me ignorant makes you feel better? 

the fact that I'm supposed to consider myself an animal? 

The fact is..... there is  a big diff between opinions and facts. 

Don't you know that kind of language and teaching is exactly why we have a society acting like animals today?  We have people acting like brute beasts today because of such humanistic thinking.  Take a good look at the news. 

Go back and read some Darwin and Huxley while you're at it......

oh and I came across this quote the other day:

"In my eyes, both Adolf Hitler and my grandfather were false prophets of the 20th century"  Sophie Freud retired Simmons College professor of psychology on her grandfather Signund Freud.