I have no problem with you 'knowing' KFC.  You may 'know,' but you can't prove God's existence, anymore than I can disprove God's existence, which is my point (which you know anyway, pun intended).

Actually, it is an observation. Besides, even if no truth is absolute, then there is no absolute truth, eh?

You too?! Well then there's our proof!

I can see it now...Jesus saying, "God...why are you hiding?"  God says, "Just look at my creations, would you want to be found by them!?"

A God playing peek-a-boo, lol.

I don't know --> Agnostic, without knowledge. You do realize KFC, that for all purposes, you're an atheist and agnostic?

daiwa posts# 60

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Absolutely true.

kfc posts:

Very good question and one that Naysayers avoid.

As to belief by faith,

Daiwa posts:

At least you are truthful in acknowledging that you (nor anyone else for that matter) is able to disprove God's existence.

But that Almighty God exists is beyond a question of reasonable doubt.  The purer the heart of the person, the clearer his mental vision of Him. When KFC says, "Sure, we can't see God but we can see evidence of him everywhere", she speaks truth. Truth is in possession. People do not have to persuade themselves there is a God...rather, they have to persuade themselves there is no God. And yet, no one who has attained such a temporary persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. We don't grow into the idea of a God; we endeavor to grow out of it.

 First...when I say that Almighty God exists I'm talking about the Lord God Who is the One, True and Supreme Being, an Infinitely Perfect Spirit, the Creator and Lord of Heaven and earth. God possesses all perfections without measure or number. God Almighty, Eternal, Infinite in intellect; All knowing, everywhere present, All Holy, Just, Merciful, Good, True, Faithful and Unchangeable. God is the Beginning and End of all things and can be certainly known by the light of natural reason.

 Romans 11:20 "for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made." That means our idea of God is acquired from the dawn of reason that comes to us via natural law.

Wisdom 13 assures the mind of man naturally rises from nature's Origin and Source, from things caused by a Necessary First Cause that always was, is and always will be, on which all things depend. The many proofs for the existence of ALmighty God comes from the fact that we humans instinctively know that we are limited in thought and activity, and feel deep in our heart that only a Supreme Being can satisfy the aspirations and longings of our soul. In short, natural law written in our heart reveals God to us, as the First Cause, the Necessary Being, the Prime Mover, and the Designer and Orderer of the universe, the Origin of Life, the Supreme Lawgiver and the Ultimate Good.

Some think that evidence must be seen or touched, but not necessarily so. We all have reason and intelligence and can appreciate intellectual evidence. Even apart from the Holy Bible, reason can detect sufficient evidence to guarantee the existence of God.

Now it would take alot of space to fully develop this and I'll only argue from causality as put forward by St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. Aquinas'

The end of a thing is the purpose for which it was made. The end of a clock is to keep time and the end of a pen is to write. For  what purpose was man made and if we discover that we'll know his end. Look around, everything has a purpose or an end. The soil is made for plants to grow for animals and us to eat and from this we can easily see that everything in the world was made to serve something else.

Was mankind made for something in the world? The answer is no.

We see all classes or beings were created for something higher than themselves. Plants are higher than soil because they have life and soil doesn't. Animals are higher than plants becasue they have life and can feel and plants cannot. Man is higher than animals becasue he has reason and intelligence and can understand while animals cannot.

There must be something higher than man himself but there is nothing higher than him in the world so we must look beyond to find that for which he was made. And looking beyond and considering all things, we find man was made for Almighty God..to know, love and serve Him both in this world and in everlasting life in Heaven.

On this same principle that the bridge and the clock need a maker, if there were no God, there would be no you to dispute or question His existence.

First, This would be true and applicable only if each one of us were an island...but we are part of the whole human race and no man is an island...and for good reason. Do you know what that reason is?   

Second,

Assuming I understand your point correctly, I'll rewrite what you said.

To each their own, just so long as (their faith and assertions) go no further than the tip of their nose.

In other words, according to this, I'm supposed to keep my faith and my assertion of my faith to myself? Where does this "rule of behavior" come from? By this, aren't you attempting to deny me, a person of devout Christian faith, my inalienable freedom of speech, conscience and association in the public arenas? 

Isn't this the goal of practical Atheists......to shut up those who believe in God?

Isn't this the goal of the radical homsexual movement.....to silence Christians who publically stand against their sexual behavior and the negative ramifications of legitimizing the practice of homosexuality in law?

Isn't this the goal of the radical pro-abortion movement...to silence Christians who publically stand for the dignity of life in all its stages from conception to natural death? 

This reminds me of one of my sons whom I will keep nameless.  I could always tell what he did and where he was going by seeing the evidence of him everywhere even if I was miles away at the time.  I'd come home and see his trail.......I could see he made pudding by the crumbs and drops of milk on the counter.  I could tell he had canned ravioli for dinner because of the can left next to the microwave and the drawer wide open where he found the can opener.   I could tell he took a shower (left shower curtain open) and went to work by the dirty clothes he left on the floor and the fact that his work shirt wasn't on the floor. 

I can tell it's a windy day by seeing the trees move.  I can't really see the wind.  I can only see the evidence of it.   I know the diff between wind and air is power.  I look around at our world and just like I can see my son's fingerprints left behind I can also see the Creator's and it's very powerful evidence.  I also believe this is because God has given me eyes to see.  Not everyone can see what I see or what Lula sees.  But you can't tell us, we're not seeing when we can see quite clearly. 

I'm telling you that you are blinded by the darkness and you can't see.  Only when this darkness is taken from you will you be able to see what we are seeing.  I can't take that blindness away.  I wish I could because I would.  Only God can make the blind see.  So if you truly wish to see this evidence that you're asking (mostly in jest), you need to go to him and ask for spiritual sight.  He will provide that evidence that you're asking for.   He says this:

"This is what the Lord says, he who made the earth, the Lord who formed it and established it-the Lord is his name.  Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know." 

You know Dawia there are traditionally 4 basic arguements used to prove God's existence.  They are called the cosmological, teleological, axiological and ontological arguments.  Are you familiar with these? 

Something is keeping us in existence right now so we don't just disappear.  The best argument for the existence of God in my book is creation (cosmos).  Because the argument from Creation proves not only that God exists but that He has power.  Only a God with incredible power could create and sustain the whole universe.  Even Sagan admitted that the design of the universe is beyond anything that man could devise.  We also see great intelligence in the design

God's rules do apply to everyone. There's one God.  One universe.  One earth.   He sent his son to the whole world with a message.  So either you believe him or you don't.  There was no one else to send that knew God the Father like he does.  So if you don't believe Him, you're not going to believe me. 

Ignorance of the law doesn't help you in the physical world.  Neither will ignorance of God's laws help you in the hereafter. 

I didn't.

Only if you believe it is beyond a question of reasonable doubt.

It is true, and something that more should live by. Granted, no one is an island in this world and most people push into other people's lives, unfortunately. However, I doubt proselytizing helps the average man when he says no. Point being, you claim that it is your calling to recruit, but yet it seems that you fail to grasp the pluralism in our society in that that not everyone wants to hear you. There will be those who intentionally turn a deaf ear and blind eye - free will sets the likelyhood that there will be, in your words, sinners who wind up in hell. If so, then so be it.

Their faith, their greed, anything lula. While currently you and I are on the topic of faith, it extends (in my eyes) to anyone and everything. The world doesn't need people shoving things onto others (naively, ignorantly, intentionally, or any other way). If someone says I don't want to hear two jehovah witness' preaching at my door - they have the will and right to keep the door closed. Likewise, if you don't want to deal with the claimed "gay agenda," then you can shut off the television, or close your door. Everyone comes with the ability to filter (and unfortunately, complain as well...). You just have to use it once in a while. You also have to realize, and understand - if not accept - the diversity in the world.

On the contrary, lula. Despite your view that I'm trying to usurp your right - I'm in fact supporting it, as well as others rights to exercise theirs. This so called Gay agenda, or Atheistic crusade...they're also expressing their right to free speech, as well as their free will. Go ahead, try and a convert, but do so in a mindful way. That is, mindful of those doors that will slam on you and those ears who will not listen; because we live in such an interwoven society, you have to keep in mind that your actions will affect others.

Isn't it the goal of radical fundamentalist christians to quell those who desire to make their own decisions on what to do with their bodies, their lives, and so on? It's a two way street, or a multiplayer game - it goes both ways. Your misconceptions also blind you lula.

You may not like homosexuality, or atheism, or abortion - but they're a way of life. They are people, and why not instead of crusading against it - be compassionate? Why reach out to strike, when you can just as easily reach out to hug? You folks (an others, not just the religious...) seem to think that it is...your duty, to make things as they "should" be. You fail to see the world as it is, imo.

The end result of all this "This is right, that is wrong," or "I'm right, you're wrong," etc....Chaos, disorder, etc. The solution? Be mindful, and to each their own - respect their rights, respect their choices/decisions and individuality.

Think about it, when you go out and do the things you do to fight homosexuality - you're not going after a thing, but a person,  any person that is homosexual. Likewise, when someone comes after christianity...don't you feel they're attacking you? You, are a Christian/catholic, that's who you are - it's a part of you. Many homosexuals feel that way; they want to live their lives as they see fit. (Some, oddly enough are christians, et al.)

Point in case lula: What you see, when you speak of the "gay agenda," is not the entire gay populace.

~Alderic

What darkness KFC? What blindness? I see the evils of the world, and I cannot stand them. I do not abide evil or it's lesser minions. Does that mean I am in darkness? Or, that I am evil? I beg to differ.

*bites tongue*

KFC, that's according to you and your belief set. Likewise, ignorance of the world and what it is, and what encompasses it and makes it - is also not wise. I believe a wise man once said, "To know the world and all it is and has become; to know all its pieces and wonders, seems prudent. Only then can you value and cherish His work."

Addendum:

Lula, we were talking about existance and all recently on another thread. I wanted to add a quote to the discussion, because I find it very apt.

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.”

The man is right. Setting aside, for a moment, where we were - Your thoughts, what your mind (and heart) says about life, and son on...do they not make the world, or at least...your world? That's what I'm talking about when it comes to others beliefs. While there is the world as a whole...our existance, our world...is largely based of of our thoughts/beliefs, of which their are countless varieties.

kfc posts:

Yes, KFC, this is so very, very important. To any and all who truly want to know God, they need only to reach out and call Him. Say a simple prayer. And not if, but when He responds, for them be open...in other words, don't harden your heart.

You make it sound like there's some war going on.

Your point? Apparently you don't like homosexuals practicing their freedom of speech. You can't have it bothe ways KFC, either you support their right to do such, or you don't.

Actually, none of the textbooks I had in high school (minus, science, math, etc.)  talked about homosexuality, none. (I should know, I still have them all - heck, I even went through them to double check) They did; however, talk about religion, and in a very positive light. Hmm, must just be a case of my school being the way it is.

Unfortunately, what you get is a small sampling. None of my teachers ever told me I had to believe a certain way, what they did was teach us the basics: math, reading, writing, critical thinking, etc. You're either speaking absurdly, or using a small sample - a case here or there - to justify your points.

And? You still have a choice KFC.

A. Gay's expressing their freedom of speech/assembly? -- Close the blinds or walk away.

B. Textbooks in your highschool not sitting with you right? -- Talk to the school or enroll your child in a private school. Also, it can be done, it just depends on your priorities, on what is important to you.

C. Something on TV you don't like?  -- Change the channel, I do whenever I (rarely) watch TV

D. Don't think there is a hate crime bill for religious folks? Setting aside the fact that a very large portion of the world is religious - so it would be like saying that we need a bill for the color red, to protect it from...red. Not saying it's silly, but the likely hood of any christian attacking a christian or such...is kinda nill. It's comparing apples to oranges. Sorry, but constitution already deals with that KFC.

This world is not your world to make to your liking or rules - it is a world where we all have to learn to live together, like it or not. That's the way the world is.

As for your friend:

I'm sorry that she (as you claim) didn't do it. I admit, it seems suspicious that the man waited so long, and the Boss' bias is also in question. (I mean, if you're managing something...you really shouldn't be biased...when you walk in the door, it is time to put your managers hat on - period.)

Still, if she did do what he claimed...then she did it. I don't know her, so I can't say much beyond that.

Also: What business is it of your friend to know someone's orientation? Why is it wrong to be offended by someone's comments (if it happened)?

Face it KFC, it goes both ways...example. You have the religoius who get offended by gays, and vice versa.

Oh, and something I found intersting...

"The current hate crime law does protect people of different races, national origins and religions. But it does not protect people on the basis of four other criteria: gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity and disability."

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_LGBT-related_hate_crime_law_in_the_United_States.svg

There it shows that a decent gap between sexual orientation/identity, and hate crime legislation. That being said, I will agree that the legislation they're trying to get through should be carefully worded.

Of course I am, and like I said:

Just because I don't agree with you head to foot doesn't mean I'm not taking any time.

KFC, my mo is that if i don't know anything about someone, then i can't say much about them save my observations. Even then, I willingly admit that I could be wrong.

Again, I will state it...I don't know the person, and it does seem suspicious. That being said, due to my nature, I am just not going to take someone's side in a dispute from someone's comments on it.

As for the questions, it was to open up discussion. My bad, when I'm curious I ask questions.

Normally that's because you and I believe differently...

Buahahahahahaha!

Pfft, look who's talking KFC; Pot meet Kettle. Granted, I will admit that I am skeptical and not objective when it comes to some things.; however, I would have to say...when it comes to most things...I'm much more than you are. 

So really...meet the kettle.