XaviorsFist

Join Date 12/2008

+11

Oak Invincibility

Something I've realized (we all know oak is already strong) is that when oak uses his shield. That target no longer gets HIT. It may say absorb or something but when using the heart of life it doesnt' interrupt it. I just had a game where i played against an oak who did this and with 6 seconds of shield some killer armor and me as torchbearer (low health) he was pretty much invincible. Either he could continue fighting even at 500 hp becuase shield then heart of life or he could run away in some of the most annoying circumstances. Through the entire game he died once. Killed over 5 people. (I got disconnected)

In my opinion here are the problems:

1) I doubt this was meant to happen.
2) How do you kill someone who does this.
3) Regardless of what you do it's impossible to prevent since shield is a nigh instant spell.
4) Way too easy to get at 4k to set up.

Problems I had while fighting him:

1) As torchbearer all my damage was burst or close to it with AoE. Yet he leveled faster because he never had to run.
2) As torchbearer my damage was all burst and when i came at him i easily took out 3/4 of his health with my spells yet he always regened back. And with cooldowns I had 10 seconds before I could damage him again but as oak he just kept pouring the steam on
3) It happens WAY TOO EARLY all he needed was 4k and starting with 1k it isn't that hard. Almost instant invincibility. And didn't help one of my allies fed him a kill. He got on a few assists too and it wasn't too hard to get that money.
4) 2 People couldn't even take him down he had wand of speed and boots of speed and ran behind towers.
5) Later in the game when the money started getting high all he needed was armor and he had a ton of it. SO that 2000 hp he gets over 6 seconds turns into 6000 effective. It just became way too hard to stop him.
5) Our towers couldn't stop him at all he just ran by then and killed us because at 800 health he still could survive the towers.

Now I know i'll get criticism saying "He sacrifices damage" or "He's more vulnerable early game" But the truth of the matter is all it took was 3 skill points so even if you followed the regular build it wouldn't be that hard to do this. And selling items you'd only need 5k worth of them so you wouldn't suffer anyway. Other criticism saying "have you tested this?" Well i haven't but it's a viable strategy that caused me to lose a game quite spectacularly. And one more thing "big deal he can only use it ever 45 seconds" yes but when you have a 35 second death counter he's only got 10 seconds outside of that. And even if you manage to kill him afterward he still comes back with his last stand and if you aren't already dead you will be then. Plus with 15% cooldown flag and 10% cooldown favor item that 45 goes down to around 33 and thats a lot stronger than before.

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This has been discussed quite a bit already, and probably will see a change eventually.

As for him using wand of speed to run away in 2v1 situations... that's just smart play that any demigod and player can do.

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Well i understand the wand of speed but while invinincible and while using the heart of life it isn't smart it's OP. Becuase running 2 seconds using heart of life then using invinciblility and letting it run for all 10 seconds refreshes him entirely.

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Well if he can sucessfully disengage, it'll only take a few seconds for the heart to refresh him anyway. The only thing I'd call overpowered is if he's sitting in the middle of three enemy demis, hits the shield, then pops hol and continues attacking.

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He still gets stunned through the shield, doesn't he?

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Yeah I'm pretty sure ice TB can piss on oak's parade

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No i dont believe he does.

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correct Aeris. Shield prevents damage and debuff but does not prevent stun or interrupt. you can still stun or interrupt his Heart of Life even when he's shielded.

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Isn't HoL instant? An interrupt won't interrupt (interrupt says stun, but it really just stops casting) and I think you need to actually deal damage to break the HoL.

I do know that as UB, I would foul grasp shielded Oak's; the few seconds of stun keep him from damaging me, which is nice, and I still get the health-steal. It's also a good idea to have speed debuffs and a wand of speed yourself to catch the fleeing DGs.

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I don't know if shield stops all stuns but I'm pretty sure he can't be put to sleep by erebus with it up.

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activating a heart of life is instant, thats true. however, the effect will end prematurely if you suffer an interrupt or stun.

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OP, you simply need to play better. 6 seconds of HoL is 1800 health. That's a potion or two fireballs at equal rank to the shield. Your spells are not affected by armor at all; his health was not "6000 effective" at 2k. He cannot do this as soon as he gets 5k gold; no armor items and he's so squishy and low hp that this trick is pointless. The items are worth more than the HoL. The earliest this could possibly be pulled off is at level 7 with rank 3 shield, but that would mean gimping himself not getting other vital skills by that point. This trick is usually seen at levels 11-12 barring some massive feeding.

The HoL+Shield trick is not some uber combo, it's the shield invincibility which you face anyway plus a free potion during it. And the "free" potion there is a 4k item that is extremely popular amongst most demigods.

You said your team as a whole had trouble with him? I'm going to be candid here: your team just sucked.

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You're not going to gank Oak if he sees it coming. You need to damage him somewhat then try and surprise him with a 2v1 gangbang. It's usually easy to escape any encounter 1v1 , it's where one guy stuns you and another suddenly appears with the can of whoop ass where most tears are born

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Quoting Deepjay,

reply 12

Stunlock ftw

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Yes but the thing is as a torchbearer i can't stun unless i go ice. Then ice doesn't deal enough damage to force him to activate your just dead. And as far as i'm concerned you do have to do REAL damage to dissengage heart of life and that doesn't count something like deep freeze. Now deep freeze may stop him from using it in the first place but the point of the matter is when 2 demi's attack him this can stall enough time that it's irrelavant. And yes 6 seconds of heart of life is 1800 health but with armor and with him attacking through those 6 seconds you're down 1200 he's up 1800. Differance of 3000. And when he's got wand of speed and boots of speed you'd be hard pressed to actually take him down if he did run. 6 seconds of running while regening plus if he has an ally demigod...

And lieu no my team didn't suck. We even outleveled them. Heart of life is also very common people. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS it's impossible to counter. This game is about wasting more of the enemies time than your own. Interupting wastes cast time. Tanking can make 2 demi's lose 30 seconds of being somewhere else while 1 oak can stop 3 demi's for 20 seconds... ALONE. Tanking can be stopped interupting healing or by jsut dishing out teh damage but Heart of life + shield is impossible to stop and coupled with the time it can waste of yours and an ally PLUS comming back from the dead.

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I play TB and I find Oak to be an easy kill. The trick is to make him use his shield early on, and stay out of melee range.

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I have no trouble with oaks who use HoL, playing TB, erebus, rook, or UB. Simply stun him and his HoL becomes worthless, and chances are if he wasted that much money on it, he's not that strong and you can beat the living bejeezes outta him afterwords.

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I think people over simplify things. Reading through these forums is just an exercise in

1.)THERE IS A HUGE PROBLEM!! THE WORLD IS GOING TO END.

2.) no like there is none, nor have ever been any problems in demigod and i like never die and kill everyone 2vs1 with Queen of Thorns.. btw here is a picture of some kittens.

To those saying otherwise Oak is by no means an easy kill for a TB or really any other demigod. That being said the shielding skills you are talking about arent availble until after Oak gets some levels underneath his belt and if he takes the shielding skill right away he is probably disregarding other important early aspects of his builds.

Also Fire TB while real fun to play is really more like a 1trick poney as all he can do is damage so he doesnt offer many options to messing with and interupting opposing demigods flow. Also demigod isnt about which demigod can kill the other as obviously this isnt balanced, its about who can manage the game to destroy the enemies citadel first.

but yea Oak is extremely good.

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Quoting will516,

reply 17

I think people over simplify things.   Reading through these forums is just an exercise in

1.)THERE IS A HUGE PROBLEM!! THE WORLD IS GOING TO END.

2.) no like there is none, nor have ever been any problems in demigod and i like never die and kill everyone 2vs1 with Queen of Thorns.. btw here is a picture of some kittens.

To those saying otherwise Oak is by no means an easy kill for a TB or really any other demigod.   That being said the shielding skills you are talking about arent availble until after Oak gets some levels underneath his belt and if he takes the shielding skill right away he is probably disregarding other important early aspects of his builds.

Also Fire TB while real fun to play is really more like a 1trick poney as all he can do is damage so he doesnt offer many options to messing with and interupting opposing demigods flow.     Also demigod isnt about which demigod can kill the other as obviously this isnt balanced, its about who can manage the game to destroy the enemies citadel first.

but yea Oak is extremely good.

We're not saying there are no problems, or that we're the best people in Demigod, but rather that this particular build is just as easily countered as the vast majority out there.

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Just to make sure it gets in people's head. You can Stun and Interrupt Oak in his Shield or Last Stand states.

If your team is lacking those abilities, it is your team's fault for not adapting to the situation.

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Quoting XaviorsFist,

reply 14

Yo ouleveled them and you still lost. That's really bad.

Shield+HoL has its counters like everything else. How are you backing up your assertion that it's impossible to counter? What do you say to a single stun breaking the effect? That sounds like a pretty reliable and complete counter to me.

Finally, the only way to tank 2 demigods is to significantly outlevel and outgear them, nevermind 3 demigods. If that happened then, well...

Your team sucked.

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Not to mention that Shield has a massive 30 second cooldown and doesn't last very long at all at low levels. It's not going to be useful more than once in a fight.

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as mentioned before its no rly good combo. if ure playing AA reg yeah, u shouldnt fight him. otherwhise stun him while he is in the shield. dont know all demi-stuns but im sure foul gasp and boulder roll can do this. wasted him the hol effekt so we mostly will retreat.

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What i'm saying is not that it's UNCOUNTERABLE. It probally easily is but i'm not going to screw myself later by switching to ice at level 5 just to get stun. It's a waste of time. You need a SPECIFIC BUILD that isn't good against other demigods or creeps. This effectively kills off your effectiveness. Sure you give that oak lots of crap but you sacrifice being able to fight in other circumstances. I'm also not just talking about Torchbearer here, that was just the example given.

Quoting Ginger Yellow,

reply 21

Not to mention that Shield has a massive 30 second cooldown and doesn't last very long at all at low levels. It's not going to be useful more than once in a fight.

Yes but if you have 15% cooldown flag and 20% cooldown item every 20 seconds you get at least half life and strength.

And about that HE'S WASTING SKILLPOINTS COMMENT. PEOPLE NORMALLY GET IT ANYWAY They aren't going out of their way to get shield. It's in most peoples build anyway.

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Quoting XaviorsFist,

reply 23

1st Dude you are so wrong here, lvl 2 of Rain of Ice will wipe creeps for breakfast( at the begining)

2d Try get Fire Ball from fire only + all Frost dmg abilities you can dish out HUGE burst dmg( TB really starts to shine from 10+ lvl)

Fire at high lvl isnt that great as Frost because of a lack of CC ( Stun, Snares, Interrupts are all in frost mode) + in fire mode you are actually HAVE TO close up on enemy to get your fire AoEs going, in ice you can back up easely(wand of speed FTW) do some research on damage of Ice combo + fire ball

3d if you got Pure Ice or Fire/Ice you`ll have no problem with Shield+HoL oak - stun or interupt him in his shield and you`ll dish out even more dps then pure fire.

Go to DemigodDb and do some calculation on dmg at lvl 15 for example, Reseacrh and dont take in considiration that Fire is more dps than Ice (Alive Ice do more dmg than Dead Fire, think about it)

PS sorry for english grammar.

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If I know an Oak is using this tactic and it's just me vs him I usually wait for him to blow penitence and then I can pop a large potion which is pretty much the same as his shield + HoL except I don't have to wait 30 secs to use another. (Of course if you're playing a build with low HP and die before the potion even goes off you probably shouldn't be going toe to toe with Oak anyway.)

Also can someone explain how stunning stops the HoL+ shield? I was playing a 1vs1 vs Oak last night and my stun (Foul grasp) just caused his auto attack to stop for 2 seconds of shield, but he carried on regenning 2k+ HP from HoL despite the stun, are you sure it interrupts HoL during shield? Was I doing something wrong?

or maybe it's just another bug.

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