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Fundamental Issue With Sins

November 13, 2008 3:02:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I know this is rather old, however, since it is still not "fixed" I think it is worth talking about it again...

Sins is awesome game - its got everything sci-fi RTS or indeed RT4X fan can desire in a game, but it suffers from one major and rather obvious problem since day one with no sign of solution...

Sins is sold as single and multi player game and it is true that it can be played as such - however - fundamental parts or elements of both are missing...

Single Player game simply MUST have deep and cool story glued to juicy campaign!

Multi Player game simply MUST have some sort of clan support and number of other competitive "motivators"!

This is all, of course, if it is for game to reach highest possible popularity...

Now, we can all see mini expansions coming our way - which is great to say at least - but not a single one of these expansions will address these two fundamental issues simply missing from the game from start...

What is puzzling me the most is that IC/SD isn't recognising this rather obvious stuff and doing something about it... I mean, as far as I remember we have been promised SP campaign almost 1 year ago - but instead we are getting 3 mini expansions... Also, as far as I remember we have been promised to get some sort of clan support, ranking, leaderboards and such via Impulse but nothing to be seen yet...

As I just said I am more than happy about upcoming expansions and will buy them all for sure - however - I would much rather spend my money on solid SP Campaign and proper MP support... and I am sure that I am not the only one

Now, please don't get this post as whine, since it is not... It is just that puzzles me that such a great game is not receiving attention from developers and publishers where it needs to receive it!?!?!

Perhaps all this is coming in Sins 2 since I think we are talking about trilogy (unless this has been changed ofc)...

In any case - sooner the better!

Some sort of official response regarding all this would be cool too while all other comments and opinions are more than welcome as per usual

 

 

 

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GHenrikG
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Reply #1 November 13, 2008 7:34:13 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

They are planning to get a campaign. IMO this is really necessary.

I would even prefer a campaign editor, thus all the players can create their own stories....

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Reply #2 November 13, 2008 8:05:49 AM
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As I just said I am more than happy about upcoming expansions and will buy them all for sure - however - I would much rather spend my money on solid SP Campaign and proper MP support... and I am sure that I am not the only one

No you are not the only one.

I think IC & SD do recognise these points privately, you tend to get a bit of a PR spin on the situation publically or even silence. They have to be careful on what they commit to though at the end of the day some updates are a damn site easier to implement than others and something like a SP campaign is quite a step forward from where the game is today.

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Reply #3 November 13, 2008 8:35:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

@TFL

Sure - but I wouldn't be posting this if there were some signs or hints on horizon... Instead, only thing that is on horizon are 3 mini expansions which are nowhere near addressing the real deal...

For example, if 3 mini expansions are about this:

1. Entrenchment - as what it is...

2. The Story - full blown sp campaign

3. The War - major MP fix that includes number of different, competitive, MP game modes together with clan support, leaderboards, cool matchmaking system and other online motivators...

This would make sense! Even if we need to wait another 7-8 months for all 3 to arrive...

However, as it is now, we might even wait longer without a sign that fundamental issues with the game are going to be addressed.

Also, I am pretty sure that we were promised CAMPAIGN for the early 2009 - yet, as we know - we will get mini expansion instead.

I am 100% sure that mini expansions would sell much better if structured the way I said above - like this, I am not that sure how well entire thing will go to be honest...

 

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Reply #4 November 13, 2008 9:27:44 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, this "fundamental issue" is largely just your opinion, to be honest. The majority of Sins' players don't play Multiplayer, so for them the current state of multiplayer is far from a fundamental issue. Likewise, a lot of those single player folks don't even care about having a campaign and prefer the sandbox, so for them it's not a fundamental issue either.

Many sides of the coin, there are.

That said, they are working on a campaign, but haven't said when we can expect it with any certainty.

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Reply #5 November 13, 2008 9:43:38 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It is just that puzzles me that such a great game is not receiving attention from developers and publishers where it needs to receive it!?!?!

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't read the last change list.

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Reply #6 November 13, 2008 9:43:41 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Annatar11,
reply 4
Well, this "fundamental issue" is largely just your opinion, to be honest. The majority of Sins' players don't play Multiplayer, so for them the current state of multiplayer is far from a fundamental issue. Likewise, a lot of those single player folks don't even care about having a campaign and prefer the sandbox, so for them it's not a fundamental issue either.

Many sides of the coin, there are.

That said, they are working on a campaign, but haven't said when we can expect it with any certainty.

I think your reply sounds unnecessarily defensive and fanboy-ish...

Hell, I am fan boy too, but am trying to be objective here and point out at certain things, that in my opinion (of course!) are fundamental in regards to this game...

I mean you say majority plays SP - well yes! - since MP isn't "quite there"... In fact I play SP too simply coz I cant afford to spare 5 hours or so for a single game and I am not exactly motivated due to lack of competitive scene, game modes etc...

And yes, I hugely enjoy sandbox mode too - but only coz I have no other option while I am positive I would much rather prefer Campaign instead...

There are many sides of coins for sure - so i never said remove sandbox and skirmish (which is one side of coin) but please add much needed campaign and proper MP support (the second side of coin) so this awesome game can finally come to life...

Hope you get my point  

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Reply #7 November 13, 2008 9:46:24 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Craig Fraser,
reply 5

It is just that puzzles me that such a great game is not receiving attention from developers and publishers where it needs to receive it!?!?!

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't read the last change list.

I have read it and replied with - "Cant wait!"

But this thread isn't dealing with V1.1 (which sounds awesome btw) but with adding promised campaign and boosting up MP aspect of your wonderful product... 

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Reply #8 November 13, 2008 10:02:37 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think your reply sounds unnecessarily defensive and fanboy-ish...

Not really, it just points out that these are fundamental issues to you, but not everyone wants the same thing from the game. Hence the many sides of the coin for IC to consider when designing content and expansions.

For example, multiplayer does nothing for me. I would have absolutely no reason to buy an expansion that just adds MP ranking, etc without adding anything else because I don't play MP. So in your proposed system of the third expansion just being that, I wouldn't have reason to buy it (other than to support IC/SD). In the current plan IC has, I'd buy all 3 and actually play them 

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Reply #9 November 13, 2008 10:18:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Annatar11,
reply 8
Not really, it just points out that these are fundamental issues to you, but not everyone wants the same thing from the game. Hence the many sides of the coin for IC to consider when designing content and expansions.

Yeah OK - so let me rephrase myself...

I am not talking in the name of couple of dozen people in the lobby but in the name of all others who bought the game yet have no time for 5 hour long game and reason or motivation to compete...

And no, I am not talking in the name of hundreds who don't need anything else but skirmish SP, but in the name of thousands who would rather dive into the story and play solid juicy campaign...

Does this sound any better!?

Also, one of inspirations to make this thread was based exactly on IC/SD decision to put mini expansions (entire 3 of them!) in front of priority cue over, in my opinion, much more obvious needs such as campaign and true MP support...

I mean this is the stuff that everyone talks about since day one so why priorities something else is beyond me

 

EDIT:

You edited so I have to do it too...

Ok So you would buy my 2nd proposed expansion! Cool Can you imagine how many more would do the same? And can you imagine how many wont buy it since it isn't delivering what they want? 

About MP focused 3rd one - I am sure you would buy it as well if it adds some extra game modes that are naturally playable in skirmish mode too

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Reply #10 November 13, 2008 12:16:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The quote is from another thread in which you bought up a similar question so ill paste it here as it is also relevant to this discussion.

Quoting Ambro_2,
reply 20
A campaign is really going to be a waste of time for sins in my opinion. For me to play through a campaign it would have to have a really good story with high production values whilst remaining challenging throughout. I cant really see the sins campaign being anything other than half baked, we know the AI is poor already and even on hard it is pretty boring and predictable so it is just going to feel like a grind. Also all the great single player games are usually built from the ground up with the campaign in mind, to add one on later is just going to be a waste of time.

Also I think it is going to be unlikley that sins will ever be a competitive multiplayer game, the games go on for a long time and as most people dont have enough patience to even complete a ten minute game of DOW before quitting then I doubt they will have the patience to play sins. Most people just play online as it is more challenging and enjoyable than playing against a predictable AI.

I think the best direction for the future of SOSE is to build upon the sandbox element which at the moment is fairly bland and then that way instead of having a half baked campaign players will create theyre own story with the decisions they make in the game. This will also improve both the multiplayer and the singleplayers aspects so its winwin for everyone.

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Reply #11 November 13, 2008 12:43:37 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Campaigns are gay.

I dont know anyone that really plays them to enjoy them for the story, just to kill time.

just my opinion, i guess.

I bought Sins because of the lack of campaign.

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Reply #12 November 13, 2008 12:48:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ambro_2,
reply 10
campaign is really going to be a waste of time for sins in my opinion. For me to play through a campaign it would have to have a really good story with high production values whilst remaining challenging throughout. I cant really see the sins campaign being anything other than half baked, we know the AI is poor already and even on hard it is pretty boring and predictable so it is just going to feel like a grind. Also all the great single player games are usually built from the ground up with the campaign in mind, to add one on later is just going to be a waste of time.

Also I think it is going to be unlikley that sins will ever be a competitive multiplayer game, the games go on for a long time and as most people dont have enough patience to even complete a ten minute game of DOW before quitting then I doubt they will have the patience to play sins. Most people just play online as it is more challenging and enjoyable than playing against a predictable AI.

I think the best direction for the future of SOSE is to build upon the sandbox element which at the moment is fairly bland and then that way instead of having a half baked campaign players will create theyre own story with the decisions they make in the game. This will also improve both the multiplayer and the singleplayers aspects so its winwin for everyone.

 

Cool argument

But somehow I think what you are preaching is much harder to achieve than to come up with cool campaign and few competitive "shorter" game modes...

I mean you said: "For me to play through a campaign it would have to have a really good story with high production values whilst remaining challenging throughout. I cant really see the sins campaign being anything other than half baked, we know the AI is poor already and even on hard it is pretty boring and predictable so it is just going to feel like a grind." 

What makes you think that IC/SD cant do exactly that while improving on AI !?

But I agree - I rather not have something than have it in shit form...

Only difference in our opinions is that I think they can do it while you think they cant...   

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Reply #13 November 13, 2008 12:54:16 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm not a fan of campaings either. I play them as glorified tutorials and usually stop about halfway through. The amount of resources it costs to actually make a campaign worth the time and effort is too much. Most campaigns are not overly well written and don't add much to the gameplay.

Since the demand is so great for a campaign, I'd much rather them put their resoures into a campaign/scenario editor so that the community can develope that area. One campaign would not do the story justice, and we'd get more bang for our buck by having them provide this kind of support.

Also, before any accusations fly, I'm not a fanboy like you suggested to one of the other posters. I rarely play campaigns in any games.

EDIT

Also, I don't see clan support being fundamental in any way at all. Especially for sins. The online community is not overly large, and I haven't heard a large outcry for this request. There are plenty more important things to take care of, ie. balancing issues, new content and mutliplayer stability. Seems like that's exactly what IC and Stardock are doing. Patches = Balancing and multiplayer stability(even some new content), Expansions = New Content

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Reply #14 November 13, 2008 12:54:23 PM
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Quoting EviliroN,
reply 11
Campaigns are gay.

I dont know anyone that really plays them to enjoy them for the story, just to kill time.

just my opinion, i guess.

I bought Sins because of the lack of campaign.

 

Hehe

Almost all games that have campaign also have skirmish... But not many games have skirmish and have no campaign

 

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Reply #15 November 13, 2008 1:02:20 PM
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Quoting Tkins,
reply 13
I'm not a fan of campaings either. I play them as glorified tutorials and usually stop about halfway through. The amount of resources it costs to actually make a campaign worth the time and effort is too much. Most campaigns are not overly well written and don't add much to the gameplay.

Since the demand is so great for a campaign, I'd much rather them put their resoures into a campaign/scenario editor so that the community can develope that area. One campaign would not do the story justice, and we'd get more bang for our buck by having them provide this kind of support.

Also, before any accusations fly, I'm not a fanboy like you suggested to one of the other posters. I rarely play campaigns in any games.

Ok so what do you play!?

MP??

I mean I really wish i have 5 hours + for a game to spare so I can play Sins MP too

But I don't...

So I play SP skirmish like most people do - and yes - it is fun!

Yet, AI can get bit predictable, I would really like to hear story about all the races (via sp campaign) and of course join MP lobby for a few competitive games every night...

Essentially this thread is exactly about that.

Not removing anything from the game as is - but adding some extra SP and MP elements to it so more people can enjoy it

 

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Reply #16 November 13, 2008 1:11:55 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah I threw an edit on my last post saying I'd rather have their resources used on more "fundamental" content.

I play MP and SP. My SP games are the ones that last 5+ hours, my MP games last 30 minutes - 2 hours. Average about an hour.

I'm not sure if you're using the beta patch, but I find the AI to be much more competitive and less predictable. I play against them on Unfair and it's a good challenge.

Why I'd rather have a campaing/scenario creator is because a campaign lasts say 10 hours. Once you've played it, it's done. There won't be much dynamism to it, the campaign won't change. The amount of resources the company puts in is quite large because they have to hire writers, voice actors, then construct all the scenarios and etc etc. 

 What I'm saying is, if you build a campaign/scenario creator, you don't get 10 hours, you get endless hours of play! Many of them won't be as fleshed out as something Ironclad might develope, but there will be many people out there that will create very well thought out creations.

 

Never Winter Nights is a great example of what a community can produce. I'm not sure if you're familiar.

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Reply #17 November 13, 2008 1:13:41 PM
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I mean I really wish i have 5 hours + for a game to spare so I can play Sins MP too

 

MP games generally take 1-2 hours.  We usually just play single star maps, not the huge epic sized multi-star ones.  Sometimes people get together to play those and plan to reload and resume their game at another time, but most people are playing the medium to large maps...not the huge ones.

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Reply #18 November 13, 2008 1:20:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Small maps are my favourite. Keeps things more intense, especially if you have everythign set to fast.. which still seems a bit slow.

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Reply #19 November 13, 2008 1:50:24 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Then there are people like me who won't buy it without a campaign...

 

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Reply #20 November 13, 2008 10:09:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I play SP. The first strategy game I played on the computer was "Ancient Art of War" (followed by "Ancient Art of War at Sea"). There was no concept of "campaign" back then. Heck, I think Ultima was just starting out.. but it was really fun because it was like a game of chess - the game was about challenging you to use your wits, not so much to find out what happened to the story. SOASE is like SimCity - if you want the game to define the "end/victory" for you, then I think you have the wrong game. In this regard, I think SOASE is on the right track (for me). I'd rather they put more effort into building a good 4xRTS engine than some fancy campaign storyline etc. If I wanted that, I think my bookstore provides a better selection..

Caveat - If IC/SD got Elisha Cuthbert to act in some of the theatrical cut scenes of a campaign, well, then that is a completely different story he he he!

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Reply #21 November 14, 2008 4:35:01 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

You know, there is one rather simple yet extremely complex thing called OBJECTIVITY - everyone knows what it means but not many people reach that "level" of perception to really become OBJECTIVE in their life...

There are people who play SP only and people who are more than happy having only skirmish option - sure, and that is fine...

But there is at very least equal amount of people (if not more) who like story, campaign and competitive MP - fact...

So why IC/SD doesn't cater for them as well!?

Why go for no less than 3 expansions focusing on stuff that will, I am sure, make most skirmish players happy yet do nothing for people who bought the game expecting campaign and solid, competitive MP!?

Why not expand your market at the end of the day!?

They have fantastic IP and product here yet with very narrow focus... Or at least it seams to be that way since I hear nothing official in regards to topic of this thread...

I hope I am wrong and that IC/SD have something up their sleeves - if not for near future than hopefully for Sins 2

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Reply #22 November 14, 2008 5:47:11 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hehe

Almost all games that have campaign also have skirmish... But not many games have skirmish and have no campaign

 

Right, I know,

I skip the campaign on all those. Then, when after I've finished playing the game, I feel like I missed out on some money since I didn'y use the campaign but still wanted to play the game. Sins, a perfect fit!

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Reply #23 November 14, 2008 9:20:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I normally skip through campaigns as an extended tutorial before playing skirmish or mp. I would not be interested in a SoaSE campaign unless it added a lot of new stuff to skirmish / mp as well. Its not really the right type of game for a campaign and I would rather see the funds and effort it would take to do a campaign go elsewhere - like fixing the AI

Here is how a SoaSE campaign would play out: The first three episodes would be a tutorial and introduce the main adversary with most tech and units locked. Then you get the star jump tech and some longer games with more tech. Then the vasari show up and more tech and now diplomacy etc all laced together with the odd cutscene and lame voice overs YAWN!

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Reply #24 November 14, 2008 9:58:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting DMNL,
reply 23
Here is how a SoaSE campaign would play out: The first three episodes would be a tutorial and introduce the main adversary with most tech and units locked. Then you get the star jump tech and some longer games with more tech. Then the vasari show up and more tech and now diplomacy etc all laced together with the odd cutscene and lame voice overs YAWN!

If that is your idea of campaign then YAWN indeed! I am not sure what is your profession but it isn't of game designer for sure

Also, we are not talking only about possible campaign here but about boosting MP aspect too...

Are we forever to be looking at empty MP lobby or what!?!?

I am positive that 1.1 and upcoming expansions wont change current lobby situation that much...

After all, maybe Sins is made for skirmishes only - and if true - that would be utter shame imo

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Reply #25 November 14, 2008 11:20:48 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

[quote who="-=XX=-Nephilim" reply="24" id="1938683"]


Quoting DMNL,
reply 23
Here is how a SoaSE campaign would play out: The first three episodes would be a tutorial and introduce the main adversary with most tech and units locked. Then you get the star jump tech and some longer games with more tech. Then the vasari show up and more tech and now diplomacy etc all laced together with the odd cutscene and lame voice overs YAWN!


If that is your idea of campaign then YAWN indeed! I am not sure what is your profession but it isn't of game designer for sure

Also, we are not talking only about possible campaign here but about boosting MP aspect too...

Are we forever to be looking at empty MP lobby or what!?!?

I am positive that 1.1 and upcoming expansions wont change current lobby situation that much...

After all, maybe Sins is made for skirmishes only - and if true - that would be utter shame imo
[/quote]

 

I'm not sure why you are harping on their Multiplayer support. They have done pretty good if you ask me. They've worked on fixes and just about to release Alloy (makes multiplayer a lot easier and more stable). The empty lobbies comes from the fan base. This isn't the standard RTS and it's not the standard 4x, it's a mix of the two. So you'll see people from both sides and typically the 4x crowd are not very big on MP.

As for the campaign, I've got an incling that they will be releasing one. Personally I'd rather them spend their resources elsewhere.

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