While there are numerous studies, the American Government has kept secret their own death tolls, for obvious reasons.

Here is an article from 2006 that represents the LOWEST agreed to figure by BOTH sides, US and Iraqi, at 150,000 innocent civilians killed.

It eliminates suicides, accidents, and combatant deaths, etc.

Other estimates put this figure as high as 600,000 but that more than likely includes the deaths excluded above.

Either way, these deaths WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED if we hadn't pre-emptively invaded Iraq.

I'm not shedding tears for Saddam and his despicable sons, but I have always maintained that a few million dollars worth of cruise missiles were a better solution to the Saddam problem than a trillion dollars and 4,000+ American lives.

Sorry.  Not taking the diversionary bait.  Let's stick to the subjects at hand.  See my previous post for a proper rebuttal.

Nope.  Research why the Chinese have had to stop their 1 child per family policy for the reasons I stated above.  Other countries, developed and otherwise, have to do the same thing, as the number of WORKING AGE taxpayers as a ratio to elderly dependants is trending DOWN for every nation except ours...due to illegal immigration.

You may not want to admit that we, as a nation, need them.  But the facts are facts. I hope I have opened your eyes to the current state of immigration and world population trends as they affect our race and our planet over the next 50 years.

I'm old enough to remember watching the first Moon Landing on the TV, so I have seen well over 40 years of Presidents and their administrations.  I'm also fortunate to have met, in person, many of them - some, like Reagan, more than once. 

None that this is relevant, of course.  You're just trying to have a pissing contest with John Holmes. 

TRUTH:  Here's just one simple to find source...complete with citations.

I'm not making this up.  I witnessed all of this, as it happened, and I REMEMBER the lies and the spin they used then, and what they used in the Gulf War, and then what they used in 2003.  If you don't, consider yourself educated.

Either way consider yourself SERVED. 

What, marrying one and supporting him through college to the tune of $20,000 isn't putting enough of my money where my mouth is? (Housing, clothing, food, health care....adds up to more than a monthly donation).

Nixon got us out after the American people put a gun to his head and ordered him to.  Before that (though he did continue negotiations to get us out of Vietnam), he escalated and widened the conflict into adjoining nations (Cambodia, Laos, etc.) along with Johnson, and yes Kennedy started it in a failed effort to cover France's retreating ass, hehe. 

There endeth the irrelevant Vietnam history lesson.

Regardless, my point was a FINANCIAL one, not a "who started/was responsible for".  I was mentioning this in the context that it was Ford and then Carter who were stuck with the bills of Vietnam and all the ramifications that came along with that.

And all Carter was hosed with was a mild recession...which I remember as NO FRIGGIN BIG DEAL when I lived through it.  Yet you want to pretend that he's a worse President than Lil Bush?!  On what scale does a minor 1970's recession compare with what even the most conservative analysts are touting as the Second Great Depression?!

SNAP!

"It's not his fault, (insert name) did it." ...."nuh uh, (insert another name) started it!"  "Did not!"  Did too!" "Did not!" "Did too!"

I'm sick of it all.

The first thing that needs to be done is CHANGE the system.  Besides working to build up a multi-party system for the long term, reforming the lobbyist system, and ending the HMOs. it means throwing the bums out who've been bought and paid for by BOTH SIDES.

And once the election is over, which is going to dominate this debate until next week, I would LOVE to spend time in these forums talking about alternatives and solving these problems.  I hope you do too, sir.

Well, actually, Yes, it does.  And casts at least some doubt on the underpinnings of other arguments you've made.

Also the BEST number, bad a number as it is.  Changing the subject must be a tactic covered in 'Debate 101' - but if the end result turns out to be a relatively stable & democratic Iraq, I have no problem with us accepting 'responsibility' for it.

edit: removed...missed Diawa's response

It's seems the pro war crowd loves to spread that crap too 'we lost less people in Iraq than in Chicago' . a shitload more people died in Iraq.

Got numbers to say America spent 'trillions ' cleaning Chicago up?

Nice try.  But unlike you, I have cited my sources.  Enough that when I have stated something incorrectly, it has been able to be corrected. And even that correction didn't undermine my position or the validity or my argument.

I'm still waiting for you, Daiwa, to substantiate a single word you've said or position you've taken. 

I'm sure all the dead and maimed will rest easier knowing you feel better about their innocent and needless casualties.

I hope you will therefore support the war reparations we're going to need to pay when all of that comes up.  We're going to be paying for this mistake for a VERY long time.

My main issue with Iraq is that we never do something so ill-conceived on such flimsy non-evidence for a clearly self-serving agenda again.  We lost our moral standing in the world because of this preemtive vendetta war, torture, illegal renditions, guantanamo bay, etc. I'd like the nation's commitment to "never again".

And one man running for President voted against the war THEN and has been proven right NOW.

PS  Oh, on Iraq, don't be surprised when those three ancient factions who have hated each other for longer than we've been a nation finally split up and try and kick us out.  Their nation was artificially slapped together by the British a century ago, and like Yugoslavia after WW2, it was only a matter of time before it split apart.  With Syria and Iran resurgent within Iraq, even if Iraq stays together, the odds are it will go the route of Hamas in Palestine or Hizbollah in Lebanon.  Some societies (based on pre-Feudal political/religious structures) are not yet ready for Western-style democracy.  In fact the only one that WAS Pro-West leaning in that part of the world was the one we completely screwed up due to our Cold War monkeying around...Iran.  And we've all seen how well that's worked out...ahem.  Our actions have echoes for decades, even centuries, not just within 4 year election cycles.  It's time for this teenaged nation to grow up and accept some adult responsibility in the world.

This thread hasn't died yet?