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Thinking42Man
Thinking42Man
Join Date 02/2008
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Balance Issue: Pirates

It's not to late to balance pirates and keep them in competitive play!

February 21, 2008 6:06:51 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I'd love to see pirates send a fleet to each player who has bounty levied against them. The current system of only one player receiving all the pirates, even if others have bounties, seems like a balancing nightmare. It would be easier if the pirates sent fleets against anyone who has a bounty. It might also make sense to increase the intervals between pirate attacks to 130-180%, while you're at it.

I'd hate to see pirates disappear from competitive play. It seems like a great concept.
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Thinking42Man
OGGleep
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #1 February 21, 2008 6:45:05 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
What would be the point of outbidding the opponent? That would take a lot of the drama away from the process.
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Thinking42Man
Thinking42Man
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Reply #2 February 21, 2008 6:55:50 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
It might, but it would also be a good step towards good balance and viability of pirates in competitive games.

Perhaps the player with the highest bounty could be attacked by a fleet 15-30% larger than it would be if his bounty were not the highest.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #3 February 21, 2008 7:56:28 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The pirates are fine. If you think it's unbalanced because you get them too often, then you should reconsider your economic tactics.
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Thinking42Man
Thinking42Man
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Reply #4 February 21, 2008 8:20:06 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The point is that if one person getting them too often causes an imbalance, which I assert does, it should be changed. Otherwise, pirates will disappear from competitive play.
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Thinking42Man
Windexglow
Join Date 07/2007
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Reply #5 February 21, 2008 8:37:28 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I think pirates should be free or fully reimburse the winning bidder; because a player willing to put enough money down to outbid someone is unfair to the winning bidder's economy.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #6 February 21, 2008 8:53:32 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The point is that if one person getting them too often causes an imbalance, which I assert does, it should be changed. Otherwise, pirates will disappear from competitive play.


So the pirate system should change because you can't keep up the economy? If you get it each time it means either:
a) You haven't been developing your economy enough in comparison to the other player. This means that you've been outperformed, and you only got your own performace to play.
You've been spending your resources on a strong military. If you do this, then the pirates shouldn't bring enough to bother you. If you still can't match the pirate fleet, then you've been building up too slow.

Either way, you only got yourself to blame. The pirate mechanic works the same way for everyone else. If he managed to put the bounty on you, then obviously he is doing something better than you.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over the pirates disappearing for competetive play.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #7 February 21, 2008 9:19:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The comprimise is that the devs are putting out more non-pirate maps. Atleast thats what I understand. This is in response to the massive amounts of complaints from people not understanding how the system works. I was a bit confused by it myself at first.

Now that I do get it, it adds a unique twist to the game.

If the community decides it doesn't want pirates in ladder/clan play so be it. Time will tell. Its either going to be all or nothing, which is what it should be.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #8 February 21, 2008 10:29:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
It's really about understanding how a game mechanic works, and how you can use it better than your opponent.
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Thinking42Man
Guesswho69
Join Date 05/2007
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Reply #9 February 21, 2008 11:59:50 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I don't think you understand the bidding concept. If another player and I get into a bidding war with the pirates, and I beat his bid by 5000, while he stops at 4500, next time around I have to bid more than the 4500 I have on my head + whatever he adds.

I believe the size of the pirate raid is correlated to the amount of bounty placed on a persons head. I've seen opponents wiped out just because I placed a huge bounty on them to keep the piratees off of me.

Any longer than the pace that is set now, and I think it would be too easy to counter it.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #10 February 21, 2008 12:03:22 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
It's not just about getting the attack off you, but it's also to hire a decent fleet to attack your enemy. If you spend 6000 credits on it, then it better payout to be more than just a few lost ships and some extra XP to your opponent.
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Thinking42Man
Marikir
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Reply #11 February 21, 2008 12:10:40 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
I have a question...does any one know if the bounty can be collected by other players in a MP game?
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Thinking42Man
Astatine
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Reply #12 February 21, 2008 12:11:25 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
The pirates can, and do, attack more than one person at a time. Those little sword icons next to players names in the auction list show who is still fighting off a pirate attack.

Only one attack launches per auction, but with travel time and other factors, it is quite possible for there to be more than one pirate armada outside the base. I've seen 3 out of 4 players engaged simultaneously.

One thing that people often overlook is that it is not just the pirates that are motivated by those bounties. Any player can claim the bounties and if you put a lot of money up then it can draw real war fleets in as well as the pirates. Sometimes the "second place" finisher in the pirate auction comes out worse than the "winner" because they get a real invasion rather than the pirates who at least return home after plundering instead of colonising.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #13 February 21, 2008 4:30:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
When a player gets bounty, the bounty will be divided onto his forces. More expensive stuff will have a higher bounty on it. When that unit dies, the bounty will be rewarded to the faction that kills the unit. Any human or computer can collect any bounty at any time, but the pirates only goes for it in raids. You can even collect the bounty you've set yourself.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #14 February 21, 2008 4:40:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The system is still imbalanced, because the loser of a bid war that goes to 3000 in the early game gains ZERO benefit from the 2750 he has bid, while getting ALL of the penalty.

Devs, please consider my suggestion.

I fear you will stop seeing pirates in competitive games, otherwise.

Myself, I never play on pirate maps. It's too easy to save all my money for bidding and end the game before it gets started.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #15 February 21, 2008 5:07:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Yes, in a tie race, and you lose, you'll be down a couple thousand credits. However, the first pirate raid is usually no more than a minor setback, and at the next raid you have alot of leverage.

I've never lost a game due to getting the first pirate raid, or any other pirate raids. There has even been games where I lost so little, that the experience I got on my capital ship was well worth the minor nuisance.

Devs, please keep the pirate system as it is.
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Thinking42Man
Norfleet
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Reply #16 February 21, 2008 8:16:11 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The system is still imbalanced, because the loser of a bid war that goes to 3000 in the early game gains ZERO benefit from the 2750 he has bid, while getting ALL of the penalty.

Untrue. The player he bid that money on STILL has that bounty on him, even if the pirates do not attack him. That bounty remains until collected, so the next bidding round, that player ALREADY has $2750 or so on his head.

Worth considering also is that if you kill all of the pirate bases in your system, the pirates don't bother you at all.
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Thinking42Man
Chehalden
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #17 February 21, 2008 8:58:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Myself, I never play on pirate maps. It's too easy to save all my money for bidding and end the game before it gets started.


Um.. i don't even see pirates as a threat anymore, there simply a nuisance. i generally just bid a little to make the other guy waste his cash pumping up my bounty. and proceed on my way to clear planets/kill the other player.

when i actually start winning bidding wars is when i know i have the other guy on the ropes.

Honestly i think with the pirates its more of a psychological thing than an actual threat, it makes most people react to badly to something that can be easily handled with enough experience in the matter. like when they will think they got me good with the pirates when it only cost me around 1/3 of what they spend on my bounty to build some defenses before the pirates arrive.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #18 February 21, 2008 9:14:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I'd prefer pirates to be nuisanse, not a plague. Sending them against another player is plain unsporting and just no fun, but enduring their armadas all the time is also a chore.
I want the pirates to be in the game, to be a factor. But at the moment, they simply don't make sense. We have other players to wage war against, and the pirates are simply redundant for that. They should create a diversity, make the universe deeper, by being a bane of trade lanes and mining sites - something minor that can't ever possibly even dream of taking on an empire's fleet or raiding a colony. Simply put, they should be an economical problem (piracy is about easy money, not mayham and destruction) - for everyone - not a military threat.

And if someone likes them the way they are now, why not make a choice at the map creation: between the sensible pirates and the current ones, and the difficulty of either as a separate button. Similar to choosing the type and difficulty of an AI player. Choice always makes people happier.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #19 February 21, 2008 9:59:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
I know how this will turn out
It is simple, just circle the right words!
(All/Some/None) of you are (correct/incorrect). Pirates are (great/bad/other). the entire pirate system will (be completely changed for the better/be completely changed for the worse/remain the same/other). All the (thanks/blame/pizza) (is/isn't) rightfully yours. (Thank you/**** you).
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Thinking42Man
Archonsod
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #20 February 21, 2008 10:08:50 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
It would be a neat idea to have the pirates send multiple fleets proportionate to the bounty on each player (or just one fleet which is then divided up according to bounty).

Getting them often has never been a problem for me though. In fact, without pirate attacks I doubt I'd ever be able to field a level 10 capital ship, let alone fleets of them.
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Thinking42Man
Aspartic
Join Date 04/2007
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Reply #21 February 21, 2008 10:21:47 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
The only issue I have with the current system is my bad luck with sniping bounties on people at the last second.  

My 2v2 strategy for pirates:
If they bid take it up to 750 - never spend more unless they seem to be out of money already. Make sure you can afford defense structures.

If you lose: quickly invest in some turrets to defend your pirate target world (this gets easier once you know where they are going).

The only time bidding wars are worth while is when you are trying to drain their credits or you know specifically that there is a strategic benifit to this particular raid (i.e. you know where they will go, and have a plan to use this to your advantage).

Nothing makes us smile more then seeing 3,000+ cr on the first bid beacause chances are they just put themselves way behind us. Some times people just feed exp to our capital ships, that's always nice.

Conclusion: practice dealing with pirate raids till they are no longer a major issue for you. (They can't be completely a non-issue because they can be dangerous at times.)Then you don't have to worry about every bid and can pick and chose your moments. The bounty system is all about risk vs. reward.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #22 February 21, 2008 11:11:48 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Pirates are a blast. I find myself wishing they had capitol class ships to help overcome defenses at later levels. As is they are a slight nuisance early game and a great xp gift from your adversaries mid/late game.
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Thinking42Man
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Reply #23 February 25, 2008 11:24:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Hmm I'm aware that if the pirate's are not all killed they will return to there base so the base has a larger amount of them. However, at my point in the current game the bounty is around 30,000 credits, while as my teammate and I have about 3/4 of the map so can afford it may cause a problem.

Do the pirates get more powerful the more money they make?

It there a cap on the amount / type of ships they have? (most I've seen is about 260)

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