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eued

Join Date 02/2008

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AI in FFA Games is Flawed

In single player games, FFA should be renamed as AIvH (AI versus Human) given the current state of the AI.

Case in point: a huge map game, 10 players, FFA, normal AI (random). I stayed alive for five hours, during which time I reduced one AI opponent to a neglible factor and had a decent fleet of 10 Cap ships and the usual small hordes, plus well developed military tech trees. However, then the 'rainbow' coalition showed up, a huge fleet of at least four AI players, all singing Kumbaya as they dismanted my systems.

In the post games stats, the only AI player that had been elimiated (after 5 hours of galactic struggle), was the AI that I eliminated. ALL of the other AI players showed steady growth that was above myself and the other AI player that I fought. This means that they were all happily co-existing with each other, happily making battle fleets that appear to do nothing except wait for the opportunity to pounce on the human player.

WHAT THE HECK? Where is the FFA struggle?

For comparisons, at least in Supreme Commander the AIs actually FOUGHT each other. I have yet to see AI players seriously attack each other, and I have played several FFA games.

No, I did not participate in diplomacy. But are you going to tell me that after five hours of game play none of the other AI players get mad at each other enough to attack each other? That they play the diplomacy game SO PERFECTLY that they never have a reason to attack one another? This is seriously unrealistic.

Yes, the diplomacy game should have some affect on how many AIs attack you, but you not be punished for not participating in diplomacy by having ALL of the AIs attack you, with NONE of the AIs attacking each other. Besides, the mechanics of the diplomacy game are flawed, right now you get demands from opponents from clear across the galaxy that should not even be concerned with you. In the CIV type games, diplomacy was something that you practiced with neighbors, but this game does not seem to have the concept of neighbors. You have AI opponents warping in through wormholes to come at you rather than doing the normal thing of expanding against their nearest neighbor.

As it stands right now, I will abandon FFA games with multiple opponents, and try various forced teaming options and see how that goes. I will also investigate turning off diplomacy all together and see how that works. Really, it is disappointing that the AI FFA behavior is not more reasonable.

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did you lock teams?

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I've played a large game like yours and had my butt kicked by an AI alliance. It was just two factions which had allied, but still it was enough to ruin me.

The thing is, the AI will always group together to fight the biggest threat (you, usually).

My solution was to reload the same game but lock the teams. Ten players, ten teams, no diplomacy (this also gets rid of the constant mission messages). In this game the AI players fought each other. One was even eliminated on the other side of the system.

I did a lot better in this game, but it was still tough. As I moved across into other players planets they still would concentrate their fleets on the biggest threat to them (again, it was me) but it wasn't one big pile on at one planet. Instead it was two or three players attacking me with their massive fleets at three different planets. There was still plenty of tension and need for strategy, but it was possible to win.

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I frequently see AI opponents slaughtering each other. Sounds like you were probably the most powerful faction and they all saw you as a threat. You should try diplomacy in FFA games against AI, I usually get one or 2 allies early on and we stay allied for the duration of the map and it results in an allied victory. If you don't keep up your relationship with them they will backstab you at really inopportune times though.

The diplomacy is not flawed, you're not expected to do every mission they give you. I usually pass on a lot of them and only grab up the ones that I fit into my own agenda and it usually works out just fine.

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I just finished my first 4 player FFA last night, me against 3 computers. When I finally got around to mashing the two that kept attacking me, I was delighted to discover that the fourth player had already been destroyed without me lifting a finger.

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AI players do fight each other, and can destroy each other - even if you do not lock teams.

That doesn't mean it works out that way in every random FFA game.

However, if you're not going to "play the diplomacy game" at all then you might as well put all the players on separate teams and turn the locked teams option on.

One other point - the AI prioritises attacks and in a game with a large number of opponents it is far less likely to devote forces to giving the coup-de-grace to an opponent who has no valuable systems left to win. That's why you were the only player to eliminate an AI faction - the AI players just switch their focus once the losing player has nothing good to take. If you lock an AI into your own team and then let it do all the dirty work you will see this sort of behaviour. The game eventually ends with the losing AIs all being purged from their pathetic asteroid bases at the very end... well after the outcome of the match was secured.

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I totally agree with eued. There needs to be some 'rules' in ffa...lol. I've done the locked teams and that is no fun as the ai should be allowed to join up against you or even with you or form alliances between itself - but it should only be limited to 2 teams max at a time (or something). I too never see any of the AI attack each other and they all gank on me at once at some point. This usually happens between the 1 hour - 2 hour mark. Even with 100 ships of my own there is no chance when 3 ai armies show up with 100 each. Its totally ridiculous. They must at some point have had violence between them and now they are friends for ever? lol.
Another issue I see with FFA and more than 2 systems is that there are usually (out of 10 teams lets say) 7 teams will be in the start system (mine) and the 3 will be scattered around. Now, this makes the initial system a great game but when you clear it out there is no one left in any other system. No resistance at all. No armies, nothing.
Another thing i've noticed is where the AI stops producing ships (or gives up?) after some of the larger battles and its down to 2 or 3 star systems left. I usually end the game at this point as there is no fun in just taking planets for the sake of taking planets. Perhaps there is a huge ai army somewhere but I'm not going to hunt for it through 3 systems. I think the AI needs to split its 'huge' army into 2 units. 1 for home defense and 1 for attacking. Probably solve this issue.
in short:
1. in FFA let the AI ally with each other but limit it to 2/3 ai teams only per alliance (randomize it maybe but limit it - advent wouldnt ally wiht TEC, etc)
2. There should still be diplomacy in ffa (unless teams are locked)
3. Check the spread of AI forces in relation to how many stars/planets available
4. Check on the the AI 'stalling' issue where they stop building (or it needs to have 2 armies instead of 1 major one for home defense (if that is the issue).

The game is great, no doubt, but there are some quirks. Even if some of these were options during map creation that would be good enough (except #4)

Anyways, just my thoughts

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Thanks for the replies -- I did not realize that 'Lock teams' meant that the diplomacy is turned off and that AIs will not ally with each other -- I will try that. I looked forward to seeing some AIs go after one another. Some posters have said they have seen this, which I have no reason to doubt, but it must be a rare occurrence rather than a common one.

I still believe that diplomacy is flawed, with teams are unlocked. If I had participated in diplomacy, and had convinced two other AIs not to attack me, then that would be still be seven AIs gunning for me.

Also, in that huge game in my original post there is no way I could have been considered the worst threat, because my credit income was well under all of the other AIs, except for the one AI that I was at war with.

It seems that the difficulty setting of 'easy', 'normal', 'hard' AI does not affect the diplomacy game - the AIs are all perfect diplomats with each other, and go after the one player that does not respond to their diplomacy efforts.

I get the feeling that if there was no human player, that all of the AIs would live happily with each, parading fleets around to show off their latest hardware!!!!! (with occasional practice skirmishes).

Thanks all for the replies. BTW, I still love this game, nothing is ever perfect.

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Thanks for the replies -- I did not realize that 'Lock teams' meant that the diplomacy is turned off and that AIs will not ally with each other -- I will try that. I looked forward to seeing some AIs go after one another. Some posters have said they have seen this, which I have no reason to doubt, but it must be a rare occurrence rather than a common one.

I still believe that diplomacy is flawed, with teams are unlocked. If I had participated in diplomacy, and had convinced two other AIs not to attack me, then that would be still be seven AIs gunning for me.

The diplomacy certainly could, and probably will be improved.

As for AI-vs-AI being rare... well, not really, in my experience, but it's certainly true that the more the human players challenge for the best planets the more the AI will choose the human as a significant opponent.

If you want to see AI-vs-AI for yourself you can either lock the teams, thus guaranteeing it, or you can use the diplomacy system to get one or more AI on your side. Those aren't the only things that will produce AI-vs-AI action... but doing either means that you are much more likely to observe the results. You can also improve your chances of witnessing AI conflict by researching the technologies that improve your scout vessels and keeping several active scouts throughout the game instead of letting them die off once you have identified all the planet types.

I would also suggest playing 3-AI 1-human games on a single star map - simply because that's what I have played most of and I do frequently get to see an AI that I am _not_ fighting myself losing worlds to the _other_ AI that I'm not attacking. With bigger games all that action would probably happen too far away from me and I wouldn't realise when planets at one of the other stars changed hands.

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I haven't played that many FFA games, but in the one I'm playing now (medium random, easy AI), I've got ceasefires and trade rights with two of the AIs, and am beating the crap out of the third. It didn't even take that much work, I did a mission or two for each of them, either giving them resources or attacking the third faction, and occasionally tossing them a few hundred metal (not that hard to do when you've got two volcanic planets...)

This may be because the AI's set to easy, but I haven't had the AI ganging up on me problem unless I let them by not doing missions for them.

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I've had the same experience as eued. The AIs gang up on the human player and virtually ignore each other.

Random medium normal with 4 players: I've won a couple of these, and the only AIs eliminated were via my own action.

Random huge normal with 10 players: I've never survived past the 5 hour point, and the only AIs eliminated (2 in one game) were by me. I was "middle of the pack" with regards to credit income, yet all the AIs eventually ganged up on me.

As a point of reference, after a couple of hours of play in similarly sized Supreme Commander games, at least 2 or 3 AI players are eliminated by mutual AI vs AI conflict.

I will experiment with the locked teams (one for each player) since diplomacy in its current state is absolutely flawed.

Another question about huge random map generation...in the latest game that I played, there were 5 star systems, yet 6 of the 10 players were dumped in the SAME system at the beginning of the game. Is this clustering intentional?

I like the game, but since there is no single player campaign (an egregious omission IMHO), I would have hoped that the much touted skirmish mode would be better suited to large scenario play.

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The diplomacy certainly could, and probably will be improved.

As for AI-vs-AI being rare... well, not really, in my experience, but it's certainly true that the more the human players challenge for the best planets the more the AI will choose the human as a significant opponent.

If you want to see AI-vs-AI for yourself you can either lock the teams, thus guaranteeing it, or you can use the diplomacy system to get one or more AI on your side. Those aren't the only things that will produce AI-vs-AI action... but doing either means that you are much more likely to observe the results. You can also improve your chances of witnessing AI conflict by researching the technologies that improve your scout vessels and keeping several active scouts throughout the game instead of letting them die off once you have identified all the planet types.

I would also suggest playing 3-AI 1-human games on a single star map - simply because that's what I have played most of and I do frequently get to see an AI that I am _not_ fighting myself losing worlds to the _other_ AI that I'm not attacking. With bigger games all that action would probably happen too far away from me and I wouldn't realise when planets at one of the other stars changed hands.

I will try all of your suggestions. The thing that bugged me the most in my game was that after 5 hours, I would have expected in the economic report to see signs of about half the players in decline, and about half the players clearly ascendant, indicating signs of struggle. Instead, all of the AIs were ascendant, with rising graphs that a CEO would be proud of. Their incomes were all in fact better than me (not a lot, but still more), with the only AI in decline being the one that was direct conflict with me (who attacked me BTW).

You would expect at least some of the other players to be in the decendant, because, after all, as a human, you can't please everybody so you will be attacked by SOMEBODY. But the AIs, at least in the game that I played, appeared to be perfect diplomats, which does not make sense for a normal difficulty settting. Perhaps for a hard difficulty, not normal.

Anyway, will try again.

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Another question about huge random map generation...in the latest game that I played, there were 5 star systems, yet 6 of the 10 players were dumped in the SAME system at the beginning of the game. Is this clustering intentional?...
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yes this is a consistent setup issue which basically makes any other star systems on the map irrelevant after the first star is conquered.
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It seems that the difficulty setting of 'easy', 'normal', 'hard' AI does not affect the diplomacy game - the AIs are all perfect diplomats with each other, and go after the one player that does not respond to their diplomacy efforts.
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I find this too. It doesnt seem to matter in what situation your empire is financially either. Eventually AI gangs up on you regardless of where they are or who they have to travel through to get to you. For some reason AI in ALL of the scenarios i've tried (except locked teams) will gang up on you eventually - regardless of the other AI levels.
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The game seems to be setup that unless teams are locked it will always be AI vs Human regardless of the other AI levels. Yes there will be minor scirmishes between AI but you will never find an AI player wiped out by another AI player. Locking teams of course takes away from the game if you ask me.
Perhaps the AI never goes as far as to crush another ai player completely? not sure but so far I have not found a perfect 'mix' of map set up to get a really good game going. It always ends up me vs all the AI - the only random factor is how long do I have before I get hit. lol

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