Liljagare

Join Date 02/2008

Siege ships = game stopper.. :*(

Atleast for me!

I just got the game yesterday, and gotten a few games in so far, each ending with the same thing. I like to build planets up, then move to the next juicy one and tear it apart, and rebuild.

Though, about 30 minutes in in each game, the AI tosses theese fleets of 14-20 Siege armadas on me, and totally wipes out my planets before I can do anything about it.

In the last game I thought I'd make it, were expandin faster, had the pirates paid off to go after the AI's all the time, had two nice big fleets holding three choke planets with 6-12 gauss platforms, 3-6 hangars and one planet even had shields. Weps upgraded for most ships too, lmr's had the MIRV torps..

Then came the AI siege fleet, first it wiped out my most heavily defended planet with my biggest fleet attending defence, and warped out, I killed maybe 7 or so ships out of 24 (I think), 10-15 minutes later I see the armada coming again, one lane away, this time for my economic chokehold planet. Needless to say, I hit "quit"...

I've read on how to build defences, have a fleet etc, but you can't kill the Siege ships quicker than they can kill your planet if they come in theese numbers!

The sad thing is, if a regular fleet shows at heavily defended planets, like a huuuuuuge pirate raid, they get chewed to bits by the defences, but Siege ships just go for the planet, ignoring everything else and chews through shields and 6000 HP in a minute.

Perhaps one supposed to use the same tactic and just skip all the nice bits of the game because you can't defend against this ONE type of ship properly? I know I could probarly build my own siege armadas quicker than the AI, but then, one would miss like 95% of the ship content, not to mention building of planets and trade networks...

I'm enough flustered to just give it a rest, because, if there is no point against the AI's , it will be the same online... everyone will just spam siege ships.

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Not exactly. There are supposedly plenty of ways to beat the siege armada, though I can't tell you how coz I haven't played.

My objection lies in the fact that the AI does this in the first place, actually. It shouldn't be a viable strategy.

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There is NOTHING keeping your opponent at your "fortress world" so why would he stay there and get torn apart? Logically the AI does the smart stuff: hit what it can and then get out.

You don't have to have a ton of defenses, but you need them on every world. You also need ships. The earliest tier frigates will do fine!

Fortify your world's by increasing their infrastructure. This gives your defenses, which hopefully include a hanger, and ships time to hammer the siege frigates as they charge. And hopefully you've got enough coverage that they have to head through defenses to get to any side of the planet.

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You guys didn't exactly read the initial post did you?

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

It's not a viable strategy unless the planet is largely undefended and hasn't been built up.

They are being nerfed some in the first update though because, as a practical matter, siege ships should be wimpy.

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Thank you! Exactly my point! There should be no such thing as a siege frigate spam in the first place.

All hail Frogboy!

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Blair Fraser

Join Date 10/2006

+292

While they have been nerfed for the latest patch, here is tutorial on how to deal with them in either case:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=402&aid=175318#1445640

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Yeah, but, it would be nice to see the AI doing *something* else at above easy settings imho. And, its totally out of wack if a fleet with 2-3 cap ships alongside most of your points in ships, numbers of gauss platforms, and numbers of hangars just *can't* kill a siege armada before it twacks the planet..

And, "tons of defences", theese were my chokepoints, which are recommended in the FAQ's, behind I've got my other planets, full with civs and very little defences.. the AI won't go past the chokepoints, but when they are out, I found in my second game that the Siege Armadas just warp in to planet after planet, nothing you can do about after they take the chokepoints, wich by all means, a viable, but crappy strategy that deprives you of the full enjoyment of both the research tree and Civ building part of the game.

Whats the point of building anything but siege armadas at the moment, if you yourself want to win? Its obviously the easiest thing to do, skip research, skip planet building, just spam siege units faster than the opponent, and its a win...

Cap ships are nice, but beyond the first one, its a waste of money, just cram out Siege ships instead...

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Well, since I was bored, I went online...

Siege ships work there too!

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It's not a viable strategy unless the planet is largely undefended and hasn't been built up.

They are being nerfed some in the first update though because, as a practical matter, siege ships should be wimpy.

I feel....Vindicated, particularly after watching folks discredit and attack those who initially mentioned this complaint.

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I seriously hope that this also means that the AI will build, well, something else too? Mixed fleets? Because atm it seems the AI is broken.. hopefully though, lesser HP on the Siege units will mean it gets a lower ranking on its build queue?

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While they have been nerfed for the latest patch, here is tutorial on how to deal with them in either case

you have got to be kidding me, talk about a knee-jerk reaction. you devs need to practice some patience.

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While they have been nerfed for the latest patch, here is tutorial on how to deal with them in either case

you have got to be kidding me, talk about a knee-jerk reaction. you devs need to practice some patience.

seriously. Siege spam is easily dealt with. Any nerf makes all siege completely unviable imo. "ZOMG _____________ is overpowered and pwns me, nerf it!!!!" is standard fare from noobs in all rts games (and most games in general).

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for what its worth, I don't see the problem here really. Granted it might be low but it is effective. Besides AI is all about logic and being effective what isn't logical about using a lot of ships to accomplish a goal for cheaper than capital ships and have a lasting impact and is quick? Its a sound way to win and its a very human approach which is what the whole concept of AI is about.

That being said I do think the siege ships are a bit to tough. Honestly I think all the ships are a bit to tough except for the capital ones. I know people are saying that the logistics of keeping track of ships that die easy is a paint but really people they are numbered fleets. Half the time I would rather blow them up and rebuild then take 15 minutes to fly them back. then again I play games like sword of the stars and supreme commander both of which are massive scale as well I guess you just get used to it. I didn't even buy the new C and C game because the scale was to small I found it boring lol (but it was a well done game).

Anyway in short I do think that the original poster has a point. Even a fleet of 20 siege ships should be torn apart by that many fighters, turrets, and a legitimate fleet. But don't get to frustrated it isn't impossible to stop (as a hint build your turrets around the entrances and exits points of your system and make LOTS... like 40 or so of the long range frigates). That combined with the shelters should buy you enough time to eliminate the fleet. Its not impossible and speaking form experience the second you start thinking its impossible and expecting someone else to fix it you stop trying to learn and figure out how to do it your self. Its only been a few days dont cry nerf so soon, you would never make it to the top of a games ladder with that attitude.

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I can see there being reason to change it, thats not what I'm concerned with. but the fact that this change comes out within DAYS of release is foolhardy. neither a dozen people playing the same way repeatedly (referencing gamma) nor a hundred thousand newbies playing the game for a few hours is a viable data pool. certainly not worth making game adjustments over

I asked for patience and time, instead we're getting reckless crowd-pleasing.

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It's not a viable strategy unless the planet is largely undefended and hasn't been built up.

They are being nerfed some in the first update though because, as a practical matter, siege ships should be wimpy.

6 orbital guns had the sieges within their field of fire and 4 bomber squadrons with the planet at 6000hp and it was dead before my fleet 2 jumps away got there to help... Might have killed two of the freakin things. The planet was -not- undefended.

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one edit, by close to the entrance and exit points i meant as close as possible consider the range restrictions. And as far as the AI goes on those raiding fleets they dont attack your builders so usually what I end up doing is building a few for token and then once they start to cluster build like crazy...

and i agree with you, i also would like some time before to many changes were made.

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Heck, even the developers noticed siege frigs. were a problem, what more proof do you need?

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This game was also sold to me under the premise that it took a variety of support ships to be successful- that isn't backed up so well when all that appear from -every- AI are masses of siege frigates... Not trying to start a fight, Im just saying.

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While I not a big fan of enemy siege frigates and I can deal with them fairly quickly, I do agree that they are a tough nut to crack. Even when I have the resources to deal with an unexpected attack they take awhile to die for the amount of damage they do. Five or ten of them isn't that big of a problem but even with a sizable fleet and defenses it takes some time.

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Stop being mad that you just lost to AI! It happens to everyone. The great thing about Sins AI is that it's the only one that wins legitimately!

God bless ya Devs, but don't become Blizzard and do nurf this nurf that buff this buff that to keep everyone the loudest group on the forums happy!

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What difficulty are you guys playing this on? I play on Medium and I haven't seen this phenomenon yet. In fact, I only see the enemy a couple of times before I sweep in and massacre them all.

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"Heck, even the developers noticed siege frigs. were a problem, what more proof do you need?"

Exactly...

Its not knee-jerk when you were wrong in the first place. Kudos to those who would admit it and then fix it... Shame on those who cant or wont. But whats worse is not changing it just because of a stubborn few who have gotton used to it, think its all ok and must be a newcomer issue only (same argument for some in reverse).

(ducks and runs out the room)...

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WarlokLord

Join Date 09/2007

+19

I don`t see the problem... that many siege ships *SHOULD* be able to kill a planetary colony in short order. Thats why you`d build them!

Don`t like them? Then strike at their fleet BEFORE they arrive in your system. Or suck back the damage they deliver to you and endeavour to pursue them - after all, you likely have a better ship combat fleet than a bunch of Siege ships, right? Hunt them down!

I do not see the validation to this original post. Proper strategy can counter this.

Besides, why should starships capable of orbital bombardment be "wimpy"?!? Because they possess big guns?!?!???

Lose a colony? Then rebuild it! Ta-Da... part of the game...

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Well im not that experienced player ( maybe 8h ), but my opinion on siege craft problem is: I think that for new players its big problem - Im happy it will be reduced. You can say that Im noob and must play a lot to be experienced - but I must ask: Is this game only for hardcore players (and betatesters) ??? I think not, and average player will welcome the change in 1.2 patch. Its mad to have so powerful siege ships without support so effective.

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For crying out loud!

It's not a viable strategy unless the planet is largely undefended and hasn't been built up.
They are being nerfed some in the first update though because, as a practical matter, siege ships should be wimpy.

Does anyone actually realize what this means?
As a practical matter, siege ships should be wimpy! Read it again!

What does the statement mean? It means that siege frigates shouldn't be usable in a spam in the first place. I know the description is supposed to say "heavily armoured", but if they could heavily armour a trebuchet in the middle ages to make it resistant to cavalry charges (bombers, here?) or bowmen (cap ships, maybe?), then they would have spammed it on the enemy base, simply to eliminate their castle, or settlement, or base camp, or whatever. That's the point!
The point isn't that people can't defend against them; it's that the AI shouldn't consider spamming them a viable strategy.

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