Sins Beta 4 Gameplay Feedback - *POST HERE*

So: culture, culture, culture.

Carrying over from Ron's 3v3 replay thread. As it is now, there are only 2 ways to take a planet covered by enemy culture: 1) Offensively, destroy most/all of the enemy culture centers that can cover the planet, and 2) Have your culture spread faster than the other player's.

Usually, dealing with culture isn't too much of an issue when it's in moderation, with a combination of 1) and 2).

But what happens if the player fills up the majority of logistics slots on all of his planets with broadcast centers? Suddenly, dealing with it becomes nigh impossible.

It takes time to mow through defenses to take out culture centers, and if every planet is covered by centers from 2/3/4 nearby planets, destroying one or two becomes pretty irrelevant and useless. You can't afford to keep splitting up your fleet to both advance and cover the flanks (especially when there are multiple ways to your flank, I'm not talking about a one-way approach), especially considering that other than some economic concerns (which become fairly minor at that stage of the game), your opponent still has the ability to put out a fleet of his own. And you shouldn't have to scrap your labs/trade posts/refineries so you can stack broadcast centers of your own and hope your rate can beat his rate.

It's not my intention to swing the nerf bat and deny culture its usefulness and viability, but I don't think mass stacking culture should be allowed to practically stall a game like this. It's not an issue with 2-3 broadcast centers on the forward worlds and a handful in the middle of the empire to fill up the loyalty gain. It's basically the majority of the planets filled to the brink with them.

To make it easier to deal with this situation, I've been tossing around two ideas:

1) Put a cap on a number of centers that can stack influence on each jump. Make the cap fairly high, so that it's not too restrictive, just to make it possible to counter that strategy in a more reasonable manner. Perhaps 5 or 6 centers as the cap. That means when you go to take a planet, you destroy the centers around it and then at most the centers at 1-2 surrounding planets, and then culture spread around the first one depletes and you're able to colonize it.

2) Instead of only having your capitals slow enemy culture spread in friendly territories, allow them to help spread your culture in neutral territory. This would not help you take over enemy worlds just by keeping your capitals inside their grav wells, it would only come into play when you've already destroyed an enemy colony and the planet is unowned. That way, even if your opponent is stacking many broadcast centers, you can still keep your fleet in the grav well long enough and eventually you would be able to colonize it.

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

Okay-

Why does every ice planet have 3 crystal... 33% of the time it should get screwed with on less roid or one metal roid instead of a crystal. Why is every system the same? Its lame and very predictable, I would think since this is game-play beta this would have changed by now, especially when considering I can make the changes myself so easily by modding, all the tools are there for dynamic and varied worlds of all types.

It would make exploration more fun, as sometimes you could come across a terran planet with 3 asteroids, or an asteroid with 5 metal deposits... etc.etc.etc.

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Annatar, what your overlooking is that I literally did stack the culture centers around that world, and had maxed out the research for them! With that kind of deployement, I deserve a -- large! -- return on my investment. For all intents and purposes, I had 10 trade centers / refineries / shipyards taken from me, just to produce culture. That is a lot of income! You could always have attacked me on my other flank -- where I didn't have that kind of culture generation -- and if you'd taken that other asteroid I would have lost all my culture generation as well as splitting my empire in two. (In fact, you screwed up on your target selection even locally -- you should have taken the other asteroid, the one you chose started its life as an economic node and didn't have as many broadcast stations...).

And if I'd broadcast spammed on my other flank, I wouldn't have had the resources to do anything -- I didn't have all that much depth available.

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With that kind of deployement, I deserve a -- large! -- return on my investment

Large should not mean game-stalling for hours

You could always have attacked me on my other flank -- where I didn't have that kind of culture generation

And where I had no culture generation, so I would not have been able to colonize it anyway.

The point is that this imbalance is entirely possible and it pretty much halts the game, not how well you managed to do it

With infinite resource asteroids, refineries matter less and less. I didn't have a single one, and only 3 trade stations, and I maxed out my fleet cap, had 7 military and 9 civvy labs maxed out on research..

Don't take my suggestion as a personal response to the way you set up. Look at it objectively and realize that people can go even farther than you did, especially with random planet placement.

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

Okay-

Why does every ice planet have 3 crystal... 33% of the time it should get screwed with on less roid or one metal roid instead of a crystal. Why is every system the same? Its lame and very predictable, I would think since this is game-play beta this would have changed by now, especially when considering I can make the changes myself so easily by modding, all the tools are there for dynamic and varied worlds of all types.

It would make exploration more fun, as sometimes you could come across a terran planet with 3 asteroids, or an asteroid with 5 metal deposits... etc.etc.etc.

Because I couldnt edit this post I'm quoting it- I wanted to remove it and place it after that chunk of culture talk that sandwhiched me.

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Yeah, a bit of randomness on the # and content of asteroids available around the different types of planets would be nice.

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essential in my mind. Randomness or static probabilities for each type of planets.

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That becomes hard to balance, though. It'd be cool, but hard to balance. Random maps already sometimes lopside planet types considerably (I love starting with a dead asteroid and a gas giant one jump from my homeworld, while someone else gets a terran and a volcanic instead), but random resources on random planets can make it even worse, if the player who's stuck with a poorer planet surrounding is also stuck with few resources on the few planets

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the whole purpose was to differentiate between planet types so that a terran gives vastly different benefits than an ice world does. I like it that way. what you could is reduce the price of extractors and increase the number of roids so that income rates stay constant. so with 10 asteroids in total you can differentiate more than with just 3. say, ice worlds have 8 - 10 with about 70% to 80% crystal, whereas asteroids have 6 - 8, but 90% of them metal and then desert ones could only have 2 - 3 and so on.

but then it becomes a) harder to defend and

a clicking exercise for every newly discovered planet. you could use a command for placing all extractors at once though.

but maybe someone can make something of this idea.

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Yarlen

Join Date 01/2005

+369

Hi gang - there are a number of reasons why we aren't open to major changes anymore. The most pressing of which is that the manual has to go to print in 14 days, so things need to get finalized (yes, printing windows are that far in advance of release).

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Is this in relation to anything specific posted recently? Like the culture/random asteroids stuff, or just a general statement to not bother suggesting major changes?

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

What making Ice Planets have a 1 in 5 chance of having a non-crystal asteroid is major?

I mean, I can do that in like an hour or less... and how does that affect the manual? Is the manual so specific as to mention the number of resource asteroids exactly?

Or are you just saying that in general>?

@ Annatar- If you want a 'perfectly' balanced map, then that is what the pre-made maps are for. Most 4X games apply this sort of resource distribution system, no 2 places are always alike, and it becomes far more interesting, for me map balance isn't super critical at all. Games can be won or lost anyways, and it makes them more interesting. and you can still have very common 'tendancies' for the asteroids, such as 75% of the time they will be 'default' versions... that extra 25% of slight difference isn't going to change the game dramatically. Except in aestetics.

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Well the thing is, random maps are fun because they are a bit unpredictable, and I'm fine with having different planets around, you never know what you're going to get. But again, random resources on random planets has the potential to be grossly unfair to one side or the other.

As for whether or not this is what Yarlen was talking about as far as major changes, that's what I asked in my post and we'll see what he says

I imagine it's more complicated than you make it out to be, since they'd have to code in an additional layer of random generation, and perhaps make adjustments to the game engine itself to allow for these variations randomly. Only they know how deeply some things are coded in.

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

You just need to mod the game.ini planet files... i've already done this for several test maps.

Its actually very easy, you make numerous entries;

Ice Planet Standard
Ice Planet -1 Roid
Ice Planet with 1 metal instead.

Then you make one 'random entry' entry and give it the above options. Then on any random map include this random entry among the possibles. Its all doable by altering the random maps a bit and this file:

GalaxyScenerioDef.galaxyScenerioDef

Thats where all the planet definitions are. I've done an extreme version for my old map Badlands, where each asteroid is one of 12 possible versions, some force features like 5 resource asteroids, or pourous core. This is a Really Easy thing to do, and a while ago Craig told me in a game we would probablly see Some variation.

If anything annatar the possibility of getting a gas giant adjacent to your HW is far more gross than adding the possibility that an Ice Planet has only 2 Crystal Rocks, and 1 Metal Rock. VASTLY. Its a random map generator, what do you expect?

Outta curiosity have you played allot of 4X space games? Because this is a pretty standard feature, and it hardly ruins those games for it.

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Personally, I do approuve Annatar about the fact that pure randomness would often result in unbalanced games. That is why "probabilities" are more interesting I think. For example, a Ice planet could have:

- 1% chance to have nothing
- 10% chance to have 1 metal only
- 20% chance to have 1 metal + 1 crystal
- bla bla

So, you take a random number between 1 and 100 and you have your result. Balancing the percentages would balance the game, but add a little randomness sometimes.

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For example, a Ice planet could have:

- 1% chance to have nothing
- 10% chance to have 1 metal only
- 20% chance to have 1 metal + 1 crystal
- bla bla

So, you take a random number between 1 and 100 and you have your result. Balancing the percentages would balance the game, but add a little randomness sometimes.

This is true, but it would still require an extra layer of logic in the game code. You can't just put it down in the text file, the game won't know what to do with it.

The other issue is pretty basic, that given a sufficiently large sample, everything pseudo-random eventually balances out. The problem is, in Sins you can have maps as small as 8-10 planets for 1v1 play, and then if your opponent happens to have 2 ice planets on top of some other beneficial ones, and you're stuck with some uninhabitable one or a dead asteroid, and then on top of that the one ice planet you do have decided to show up with only 1 crystal rock.. suddenly your opponent has a pretty extreme advantage not because of how he plays, but just because of the random generation.

So, on big maps it would all even out, it's the small maps that can get extremely skewed.

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

No it doesnt:

HERE

from the galaxy scenario file

planetType
designName "WeightedNonIcePlanet"
entityDefNameCount 6
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert"
entityDefName "PlanetVolcanic"
entityDefName "PlanetAsteroid"
entityDefName "PlanetAsteroid"
entityDefName "PlanetDeadAsteroid"

This is the entry most used for planets in the random maps more or less. If you wanted that to be more likely a Terran planet all you have to do is copy the Terran entry 7 times...

So for example:

planetType
designName "WeightedNonIcePlanet"
entityDefNameCount 6
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert"
entityDefName "PlanetVolcanic"
entityDefName "PlanetAsteroid"

Tada, now it has a 70% chance of being a terran and 10% Volcanic, 10% Desert, 10% Asteroid.

Now you might Say "But varying the resource asteroids would need to alter code!" No it doesn't
you see there is a file for every 'planet' type. Copy the file, change the resource asteroid quantity or type in it, and rename it ... PlanetTerran002A for example. You made a new planet, you just need to add it to the above entry, each random entry will grow in size with the more variables, but its easy, just copying and pasting. Its so easy you can mod the game for this entirely with Note-Pad!

So don't tell me the game can't do it Annatar... I've already done this with a map! I did it MONTHS ago during Beta 3. No extra game logic or code. Its absurdly simple to do, and I can only assume it was done so to be gloriously convenient for mod happy people

I just don't neccessarily want to do the work on something that should be a given in any space game.

Its annoying to do but I can make the game select for a planet a 'anomaly' entry that will place either a magnetic or Ion storm, or asteroid field. A dead planet entry, that will sometimes place a Gas Giant, a planet entry that places a Volcanic, but I have 5 versions some with more militia some with less, some with more resource asteroids, some with NONE. Its all Very very Very doable Annatar.

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something different too, not sure though if its more technical or gameplay. the vasari carrier's ultimate creates three copies of either a frigate or a cruiser, but always three. thus it makes a huge difference if you target the skrimisher or the devastator. I dunno, seems too much require mikro, maybe have it based on fleet points how many ships are created. except that this ability is supposed to get stronger when stronger ships are unlocked late in the game.

I tend to agree with annatar that coding it, so that it avoids extreme situations, especially on small maps, would take too much time at this stage.

no comment on my idea of increasing asteroid count in general? you can still maintain the relative balance and via a larger overall number you can allow for very minor fluctations that do bring randomness into a game. say, an ice world with usually 5 crystals, but a chance to have 1 (10%) or 2 (2%) metal instead of a crystal each. that shouldnt break the game massively and still provide for some variance.

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So don't tell me the game can't do it Annatar... I've already done this with a map!

What you've done is not random in the slightest. The game then doesn't randomly generate planets, it only has more options to pick from from user created planets.

- 1% chance to have nothing
- 10% chance to have 1 metal only
- 20% chance to have 1 metal + 1 crystal
- bla bla

This is random! So if you want a 1% chance of something, are you going to fill it wih 100 entries? See how silly that becomes?

And then because you'd want to keep the planet types themselves random, you'd need to add the same number of entries for every other planet type, too

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

and is entirely doable with the methods I've mentioned.

For example

Using a simple naming code for the new planet files the Name #M(metal)#C(Crystal)

planetType
designName "Random Terran Planet"
entityDefNameCount 6
entityDefName "PlanetTerran0M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran0M2C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran2M"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran2M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"

Each combination for 1 or 2 roids is here, as well as a single 3 roid, to make these 'new' types not very likely to avoid unbalance as easy as this:

planetType
designName "Random Terran Planet"
entityDefNameCount 6
entityDefName "PlanetTerran0M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran0M2C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran2M"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran2M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"

SO now there is only a 25% chance that this Terran Planet is anything but a regular Terran Planet, among that 25% chance are 5 Variants, meaning there is only a 5% chance of getting the awesome 3 asteroids. You want a random entry with different planets?

planetType
designName "Random True Planet"
entityDefNameCount 6
entityDefName "PlanetTerran0M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran0M2C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran2M"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran2M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetTerran1M1C"

entityDefName "PlanetDesert0M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M0C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert2M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert2M0C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert0M2C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert0M0C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert4M0C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"
entityDefName "PlanetDesert1M1C"

There this long ass entry has a 50/50 chance of being terran or Desert,

the Desert will be 'standard' 65% of the time, the 35% being split up into variants, each with 5% likly hood.

This is easy. The annoying part is making the new files required... so far 12, 5 variants for the Terran and 7 for the Desert. But thats a matter of a couple of lines of difference in each file. Easy Easy Easy stuff guys.

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

Your right annatar, I had to do 10 minutes of work instead of write a random generator that would take tons of time. But the effect is the same.

The random maps do pick planets randomly.
They even pick from various versions of 'weighted' entries like I posted above. Yes its some work, but its very simplistic and will have the same effect.

Your absolutely right about the number of lines... but thats you know... very common in programs. Its really easy, really fast. I'll Do It Tonight.

I'll take the random medium map and I'll make it so that it generates entries like these. Ironclad can use my work if they like, but I don't think the ammount of work is as much an issue as it is about their theory/design.

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And very time consuming. But I've made my point

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

I just finished making 5 variant planets for each of the planet types

Desert, Terran, Volcanic, Asteroid, Ice.

Thats 25 Files, all you have to do is copy and apste them, rename them apropriately, and modify 2 lines in each, 2 digits, the 'metal asteroid count' and the 'cyrstal asteroid count'.

I also made myself a note sheet with all the file names so that now I can make the Random entries I want by copying and pasting quicker and at a glance.

I'll make sure that each variant planet has only a 5% chance, and lets see I'll do

1. Entry for ANY true planet
2. Entry for Random Asteroid
3. Entry for Random Asteroid OR Anomaly
4. Entry for NON-Ice Planet, Can be an Asteroid
5. Pure Random Entry, all Planets all anomalies, Entirely equal chance for each type of planet/anomaly (but variants still get 5%)

Bet you it takes me 2 hours. Then i have to alter the map... which sadly I don't have the map files here at work, just the game info (I like reading the unit info for thingys)

PS: Sadly the files are Beta 3 files here, so I will have to Quadrupple check when i get home that nothing changed between versions, but its going so fast that I might just REDO all the effort anyways.

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Cool work Gauntlet.

Now for my Gameplay Feedback.

1. I would like new colonies to cost more in $ until they are upgraded to self supporting colonies. This would make expansion more strategic and less 'go for broke' (yes, pun intended).

2. I would like mines to take 3 times as long to build. This would make raiding mines a more more effective strategy WITHOUT making mines more vulnerable.

Both of these ideas are to help once again make economic warfare a viable strategy. They are an easy way to counter the negative effects of the new infinite resource model without endangering its positive effects.

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

Done- I'll PM a proof of work to you Annatar.

Took me what? 2 hours?

All thats left to do is the map files, but the TOOLS the Galaxy Scenario file and all the planet files, are done.

I can make new 'Random' entries with whatever variables you like in a matter of say 10 minutes per... because now I have existing and copyable/pastable spreads of each planet as 20 lines... 5 Variants and the Standard planet... the standard planet is 15 lines, meaning a 75% chance of the standard, and then a 25% chance of a variant, any particular variant has only 5% chance. Some are bad some are good, 2 reduce it to 1 Resource Asteroid, 2 keep the same count but change the types, and 1 ups the count slightly.

The 'Pure Random' Entry I made has a type count of 200, and even chances of every 'class' of planet, but if it selects a Terran planet, there is the same percentages i just quoted- that any Terran Planet variant comes up. Same with Desert, Asteroid, etc. I didn't make variant Gas Giants or Ion Storms with different abilities, as that is not really neccessary, but I will just keep adding to my foundation now.

This is extremely Do-able by a trained staff. And quickly. If they paid someone say 20$ and hour to just do what I've done for 8 hours, they would have as many combinations and random entries as you could want for a total of 160$ You could make the intern do it. All I had was 2 Note Pad Files.

The true cost if they can't get a intern to do it, would be in oppurtunity to be doing other things- IE coding more ships or something, something which I completely understand.

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Sins Beta 4 Gameplay Feedback - POST HERE

Sins Beta 4 Gameplay Feedback - POST HERE